Re: Lam as Coach : Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:48 pm  

Last Son of Wigan wrote:

I think we just have a different opinion on the season. Yes it could have been worse, but it could have also been better-way better. He didn't take over an under-performing team, he took over current champions, even with the departing players he inherited a worthy group...so that's by the by.

You make many valid points regarding injuries, we've had our fair share. However I look at overall performances, even now when we're heading towards the back 9 of the season we're still not playing well. I don't know if you saw anything of the Wakey game or the Wire game before the CC final, we're just not putting in excellent 80 min performances...while I'm more than happy to see how the season has turned around and now we're second (thank god) we're not seeing a team playing at a level which looks capable of winning the GF.
I don't think realistically anyone can say the performance v Wakey was a good one, we've had more bad performances than good this season, you can work through the fixtures, and I hate to say it, more absolute stinkers than amazing performances.

Considering this... I think a 6/10 overall is about right.

However... I do agree with your final comment, my verdict is 'this season so far'... I think next season, when Lam has had time and the introduction of new personnel, we could very much see a much better side.

Fair comment, it's all down to different opinions in the end and I can't say I disagree with much you say to be fair. It's more the interpretation of the same data, so to speak. Far worse can be equally seen as far better. It all depends if you're a glass half full or half empty type of person.

You say we've played more poor games than good and, again, I'd agree. However all the stinkers were at the beginning of the season and, as we now sit in 2nd with our destiny in our own hands, those are largely irrelevant. Had we missed out because of them, that would have been a different story, but now all that matters is recent form and I would argue that is a different matter.

The last 11 games have brought only 1 loss. Those performances have ranged from average to good overall with pockets of excellence. Is that good enough to win the GF? Well, it's significantly better than Wire's and Saints performances have, as last season, been tailing off at the back end of the season. The loss at London, the struggle against a championship team in the semi final and a resounding bottle job in the final among them. Last Friday they were again worse than anything we've served up in months! So in answer to that question I would say "it shouldn't be but, in reality, it probably is". We would only need to see a Catalans at home or Hull KR on Easter Monday, an 80 minutes like the first half away at Castleford or, in truth, a dogged defensive display like we saw from Warrington at Wembley for it to happen.

I'm certainly not saying we're the finished article but, perhaps where we differ, is I've seen enough improvement in the team to believe we may well do much the same as last year. Don't forget everyone, yourself included, was saying we weren't good enough last year and it was only come the playoffs that we became the 'champion team' that you say Lam inherited.

Re: Lam as Coach : Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:11 am  

Phuzzy wrote:

Fair comment, it's all down to different opinions in the end and I can't say I disagree with much you say to be fair. It's more the interpretation of the same data, so to speak. Far worse can be equally seen as far better. It all depends if you're a glass half full or half empty type of person.

You say we've played more poor games than good and, again, I'd agree. However all the stinkers were at the beginning of the season and, as we now sit in 2nd with our destiny in our own hands, those are largely irrelevant. Had we missed out because of them, that would have been a different story, but now all that matters is recent form and I would argue that is a different matter.

The last 11 games have brought only 1 loss. Those performances have ranged from average to good overall with pockets of excellence. Is that good enough to win the GF? Well, it's significantly better than Wire's and Saints performances have, as last season, been tailing off at the back end of the season. The loss at London, the struggle against a championship team in the semi final and a resounding bottle job in the final among them. Last Friday they were again worse than anything we've served up in months! So in answer to that question I would say "it shouldn't be but, in reality, it probably is". We would only need to see a Catalans at home or Hull KR on Easter Monday, an 80 minutes like the first half away at Castleford or, in truth, a dogged defensive display like we saw from Warrington at Wembley for it to happen.

I'm certainly not saying we're the finished article but, perhaps where we differ, is I've seen enough improvement in the team to believe we may well do much the same as last year. Don't forget everyone, yourself included, was saying we weren't good enough last year and it was only come the playoffs that we became the 'champion team' that you say Lam inherited.

We might do as well as last season, you're right. We might go undefeated in the playoffs and win the GF, if so I'd gladly change my scoring; of course. But at this stage I'm reviewing the season so far, not the hypotheticals of what might happen; which is impossible to do.

Re last year. At one stage I would have given the 'season so far review' a poorer result, obviously, we weren't looking like a winning side, but things changed and we finished on a stormer, so of course I'd change my thoughts and scoring considering the new information considering how well we performed at the end of last season, that's when we became a champion side, which is the simple facts of the matter, as we won the championship.

I am however excited to see what this season brings, I still have faith that we can improve, put together 80 min performances and, fingers crossed be back to back champs come October; which after the start we had; would be pretty fantastic.

Re: Lam as Coach : Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:53 am  

Phuzzy wrote:

The last 11 games have brought only 1 loss. Those performances have ranged from average to good overall with pockets of excellence. Is that good enough to win the GF? Well, it's significantly better than Wire's and Saints performances have, as last season, been tailing off at the back end of the season.

Interesting take. I can see why you would be confident, but that one loss was to the team you say are doing worse on the back of losing with deliberately weakened teams at London and a loss in the cup to the team you lost to in the cup.

Realistically, ignoring deliberately weakened teams at London, we've lost one game in the league in early April. We're going for a 100% home record this weekend.

The recent dip in form over the same 11 game sequence you refer to has included (other than weakened teams at London):
- nilling a team battling for the play-offs in a meaningless game for us
- 30+ points on Leeds/Wire away in games where they needed points but were meaningless for us
- easy win over Wakefield
- easy win over Wigan
- 40 points on Hull away
- another win over wire away
- another 30+ point score against Leeds
- easy win over hudds

I think you have every right to be confident in Wigan's improvement and no question you have every chance of winning the GF. But I struggle to see that respective form is the reason for that.

Re: Lam as Coach : Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:01 am  

FearTheVee wrote:

Interesting take. I can see why you would be confident, but that one loss was to the team you say are doing worse on the back of losing with weakened teams at London and a loss in the cup to the team you lost to in the cup.

Realistically, ignoring deliberately weakened teams at London, we've lost one game in the league in early April. We're going for a 100% home record this weekend.

The recent dip in form over the same 11 game sequence you refer to has included (other than weakened teams at London):
- nilling a team battling for the play-offs in a meaningless game for us
- 30+ points on Leeds/Wire away in games where they needed points but were meaningless for us
- easy win over Wakefield
- easy win over Wigan
- 40 points on Hull away
- another win over wire away
- another 30+ point score against Leeds
- easy win over hudds

I think you have every right to be confident in Wigan's improvement and no question you have every chance of winning the GF. But I struggle to see that respective form is the reason for that.

Anything can happen in a one off game the CC where Warrington beat you all the other games are irrelevant as to our CC we only just lost to Warrington.You have bottled it in the past we will soon be into playoff games a one off game when all the other games don't matter. I don't think we are good enough to beat Saints yet but who knows one off games???? .

Re: Lam as Coach : Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:21 am  

The current 17 won't beat Saints or come close. However, with Flower, Lockers and maybe Bullock back that could change things, especially in a one off game where the pressure will be on Saints.

Re: Lam as Coach : Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:42 pm  

Apart from differences in opinions in regards to inconsistent form and the standard we’re at, I think it’s important to highlight where coaching has been an obvious influence. Powell for example is a far better player the last few months following a change in coaching. Marshall, Hankinson, Partington, Sarginson, Smithies, Williams are examples of players who have improved under Lam. It took a while but it’s now evident and with a full Pre-season plus the addition of quality that’s coming in, we have a heck of a lot to be positive about.

Re: Lam as Coach : Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:52 pm  

FearTheVee wrote:

Interesting take. I can see why you would be confident, but that one loss was to the team you say are doing worse on the back of losing with deliberately weakened teams at London and a loss in the cup to the team you lost to in the cup.

Realistically, ignoring deliberately weakened teams at London, we've lost one game in the league in early April. We're going for a 100% home record this weekend.

The recent dip in form over the same 11 game sequence you refer to has included (other than weakened teams at London):
- nilling a team battling for the play-offs in a meaningless game for us
- 30+ points on Leeds/Wire away in games where they needed points but were meaningless for us
- easy win over Wakefield
- easy win over Wigan
- 40 points on Hull away
- another win over wire away
- another 30+ point score against Leeds
- easy win over hudds

I think you have every right to be confident in Wigan's improvement and no question you have every chance of winning the GF. But I struggle to see that respective form is the reason for that.

All fair comment mate, however it's largely different interpretations of the same facts. You dismiss the London results because of weakened teams, for example, but fail to apportion the same reasoning to ourselves. We've been playing weakened teams all year (including throughout our run of 10 wins from 11) yet you're happy to use that as a definite marker of relative strength against a Saints team that's been largely at or near full strength. How do you reconcile that?

You mentioned that we lost in the cup to Warrington, which is true, but fail to point out that most pundits were of the opinion that we were the better side on the day, lost by only 2 points and beat them in the league the week before you capitulated to them in the final. In addition, our defeat to them was at a time we were, by common consent, garbage. Not exactly a good form line, then, I think you'll agree.

I'd be more interested to hear your takes on the challenge cup semi and final and last weeks game where you were pretty much at full strength in all instances. Grand Final winning form, in your opinion?

I'm not doubting for a moment that you go into the playoffs as favourites just as you did in the Challenge Cup and, as I pointed out, last season too. We all know what happened on both of those instances.

Re: Lam as Coach : Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:10 pm  

Wigan are absolutely under no pressure to win the GF this season. Its quite rare that teams win titles back to back.

Re: Lam as Coach : Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:32 pm  

Saints on the other hand are under unprecedented pressure to win the GF now. I read today that they are on course to break the all time RL record for the points gap between 1st and 2nd in the final league table. Mind you don't bottle another, lads

Re: Lam as Coach : Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:53 pm  

FearTheVee wrote:

Interesting take. I can see why you would be confident, but that one loss was to the team you say are doing worse on the back of losing with deliberately weakened teams at London and a loss in the cup to the team you lost to in the cup.

Realistically, ignoring deliberately weakened teams at London, we've lost one game in the league in early April. We're going for a 100% home record this weekend.

The recent dip in form over the same 11 game sequence you refer to has included (other than weakened teams at London):
- nilling a team battling for the play-offs in a meaningless game for us
- 30+ points on Leeds/Wire away in games where they needed points but were meaningless for us
- easy win over Wakefield
- easy win over Wigan
- 40 points on Hull away
- another win over wire away
- another 30+ point score against Leeds
- easy win over hudds

I think you have every right to be confident in Wigan's improvement and no question you have every chance of winning the GF. But I struggle to see that respective form is the reason for that.

If the last season and three quarters has taught Saints anything, I would think that would be that what’s gone before in the regular rounds count for nothing when it comes to these big games. Yes it gives you an advantage finishing first but come two weeks time everything starts again, the pressure racks up and it takes an unbelievably brave team to not go in their shell a little and start to play more conservatively. That then means that the gap between any ‘form’ teams and ‘out of form’ teams narrows because it becomes a game of margins, desire and in some cases luck. We’ve seen time and again that a run to a grand final win can be all in the timing.