Hampshire v Williams : Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:24 am  

First of all I’m no Hampshire groupie, the lad still has a lot to prove and is still some way off the finished article as a HB.

That said it tells you all you need to know about the British game and it’s three sad obsessions - over reliance on imported pivot players - not playing players in position - an absurd obsession with a players club shirt at international level.

It baffles me how Williams gets selected at that level it really does? If he wore almost any other shirt he would not get a sniff! He’s been barely adequate at club level in recent years.

I don’t think Hampshire has helped himself tbh but of the two imho he has far more of a game than Williams.

Yet he’s never really been given a run at 7 not even at Leigh due partly with our third obsession which is to play any young British HB at either FB or hooker.

This is nearly always done to accommodate an Aussie and quite often a second rate one. Even Miller who I like is I get the feeling bulletproof these days and no matter how well Hampshire or even Reynolds do Milky will be first on the team sheet - not Millers fault by the way.

We are far from the worst for this as it happens in every club in the land. Tomkins is a far better HB than Williams and Most of Wigan’s imports yet he’s only being used as a HB now after years of being wasted at FB - years he could have spent perfecting his game. Much to my surprise he’s been great this test series but it’s too little too late as his top years are gone.

Now the new obsession is Hastings! Seriously is that how low we have gone. Great player but he’s not British end of.

Put simply we need to start persisting with British HB’s at every club. Bring back A teams and let them learn until they are ready 22-24 year old is an ideal stage to step up to first choice HB.

We won’t beat the Aussies until we match them in brain as well as brawn and that won’t happen until we stop looking for quick fixes and develop players properly.

So back to my original point - Hampshire v Williams. Hampshire needs to buckle down now and stop listening to anyone except his Coach and maybe one day he’ll wear the England 6 or 7. Williams needs to be ignored until he learns how to truly play the game.
Both players have clearly been mismanaged through the years but it strikes me as odd that the clearly more talented of the two is still a million miles from international level. Whilst the other who is equally as far off gets picked without question. And finally both will spend most of their club career as second fiddle to Antipodeans of dubious quality and this will be mirrored throughout SL.

Very very sad situation that was so glaringly exposed today - if that had been Australia it would have been a series white wash to them and a third test drubbing of 50 points plus.

Re: Hampshire v Williams : Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:40 am  

Had this debate all too many times, I don't rate Williams at all. I'm not sure if anyone else heard but he dabbed a kick into the in goal area yesterday and one of the commentators labelled him as having the best kicking game in Super League.

It's embarrassing.

We have better available and you're completely right with "an absurd obsession with a players club shirt at international level." I think there are a few others who shouldn't be playing for England yet continue to get the call up because of who they play for.

Re: Hampshire v Williams : Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:48 am  

Vasty I agree with all you say, unfortunately there are posters on here already putting Hampshire at FB for the coming season (not me, I like him at SH) so if that comes off it will be yet another example of what you are highlighting.

Re: Hampshire v Williams : Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:57 am  

Yet Williams has won the shield with England and the super League trophy with Wigan this year baffling isn't it

Re: Hampshire v Williams : Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:54 am  

snowie wrote:

Yet Williams has won the shield with England and the super League trophy with Wigan this year baffling isn't it

Not really sure why the rolling eyes were needed but hey - club level and international are different.

My point wasn't so much at Williams as a player though I don't think he is up to it as was shown yesterday in a huge way, as it was with Myler. It's to do with the lack of options and chances for young British half backs. This ends up with a past it Myler and a not good enough Williams being all we had. If we are to beat the Aussies ever let alone in a test series we cant go on like this IMO.

The main reason for using Hampshire as an illustration is because he was Williams comtemorary at Wigan, was at one point considered the better of the two yet his career (partly his own fault I suspect) had stalled until last season.

The other reason I used these two is this - when you watch Hampshire despite him having some faults whenever he gets the ball you do feel he might do something special - and fairly often he does - do you ever get that with Williams? I don't yet that's what's needed at international level.

This I fear is where Bennetts big failing is, he creates a club culture within an international team but sometimes you need more than that and I don't think he has the flexibility to do it. Makinson will keep TJ out forever unless he's injured and Hall never regains form - the former I can accept as Makinson has earned it. However he will stick with Williams or Gayle forever IMO despite neither having the X factor. I accept for now there are few alternatives but there might be in a few years yet they won't get a sniff unless they wear a Saints or Wigan shirt as I'm convinced they are the only two teams that really register with Bennett.

Oh well we will see.

Re: Hampshire v Williams : Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:09 am  

vastman wrote:

Not really sure why the rolling eyes were needed but hey - club level and international are different.

My point wasn't so much at Williams as a player though I don't think he is up to it as was shown yesterday in a huge way, as it was with Myler. It's to do with the lack of options and chances for young British half backs. This ends up with a past it Myler and a not good enough Williams being all we had. If we are to beat the Aussies ever let alone in a test series we cant go on like this IMO.

The main reason for using Hampshire as an illustration is because he was Williams comtemorary at Wigan, was at one point considered the better of the two yet his career (partly his own fault I suspect) had stalled until last season.

The other reason I used these two is this - when you watch Hampshire despite him having some faults whenever he gets the ball you do feel he might do something special - and fairly often he does - do you ever get that with Williams? I don't yet that's what's needed at international level.

This I fear is where Bennetts big failing is, he creates a club culture within an international team but sometimes you need more than that and I don't think he has the flexibility to do it. Makinson will keep TJ out forever unless he's injured and Hall never regains form - the former I can accept as Makinson has earned it. However he will stick with Williams or Gayle forever IMO despite neither having the X factor. I accept for now there are few alternatives but there might be in a few years yet they won't get a sniff unless they wear a Saints or Wigan shirt as I'm convinced they are the only two teams that really register with Bennett.

Oh well we will see.

Williams isn't the first choice 6 and hasn't been for a while. Widdop and Brown have been ahead of him. Club and international are different, correct but Williams has just had success at both in the same year.

The squad is made up of players mostly from the top 3 teams this year and therefore, in theory, the top performers across the year. Wayne Bennett sits down and knowing that his first 2 choice stands offs were out is presented with George Williams who won the comp, has played with these guys before or Ryan Hampshire (who im not even sure plays at 6?) playing in a team which finished 7th after 23 rounds, who would you honestly pick, putting club allegiance aside? Williams has a raft of big game experience and Hampshire doesn't which counts for a lot. I will put it out there that if Hampshire was so regularly doing special things it would surely be reflected in stronger results?

For what it's worth I think England were beat down the middle yesterday. Cronk and Thurston would struggle to put their mark on it.

Re: Hampshire v Williams : Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:41 am  

I generally agree with your point about getting more British halves playing for SL teams rather than Aussies, especially second rate ones.

What I would love to see though and it's a shame it's not happening next year, is a full England team with no injuries containing the likes of Sam Burgess, Widdop, Clarke, Roby, Watkins, and even Hall if he's playing well in the NRL up against the current Aussies, especially while they're in a period of transition. We'd have a very competitive pack with the 3 Burgess brothers, Thompson, Graham, Hil, Clarke, Roby, Whitehead & Bateman & I'd probably try to play Tomkins and Widdop in the halves, (Sam at SH and Widdop at SO) seen as they've shown their all-around game is better than the rest at this level. As for Fullback, putting to one side his sins for one minute, if Hardaker comes back and starts to perform for Wigan how we know he can he'll be up for that role come to the end of the season.

Tbh yesterday I thought we were always going to struggle once we lost George, Tomkins & Clarke, we just looked too lightweight in the pack especially when Burgess and Thompson both went off and that was what was behind our first two wins, a strong and big pack making big meters down the middle of the park. We were a bit lost in the halves without Tomkins especially with our overall kicking game and general guidance around the field. Also for me, Clarke at Hooker was much better than Hodgson and I think that showed yesterday especially when we had scoring chances, Hodgson's distribution isn't as good, he doesn't always make the right calls & he runs up too many blind alleys as well.
ATEOTD when we didn't convert our pressure into points and they did, our heads gradually went down and their confidence grew, especially in that second half.

[PopTart]

Re: Hampshire v Williams : Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:06 pm  

I like Hampshire a lot but he hasn't done enough to be talked as an International yet.
I'm not sure about the overseas player stopping his development. Effectively Williams and Powell stopped his first team opportunities at Wigan and he chose to move on.

Williams looked great when he hit the first team but I think he suffers from the Wane style of play. But still he's playing regularly at half back for his club.

Richardson Gale Tomkins (maybe Lomax) and Widdop are all in front of him.

Re: Hampshire v Williams : Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:08 pm  

PopTart wrote:

I like Hampshire a lot but he hasn't done enough to be talked as an International yet.
I'm not sure about the overseas player stopping his development. Effectively Williams and Powell stopped his first team opportunities at Wigan and he chose to move on.

Williams looked great when he hit the first team but I think he suffers from the Wane style of play. But still he's playing regularly at half back for his club.

Richardson Gale Tomkins (maybe Lomax) and Widdop are all in front of him.

Sorry but Richardson is bang average at very best, if he gets anywhere near an England shirt we have massive problems.

Re: Hampshire v Williams : Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:38 pm  

Our halfback set up should be Gale and Widdop, Williams should be further down the list - maybe even playing for the Knights.

In fairness look at the knights squad, it's described as the following on Wikipedia - "The Knights play a key role in the development of emerging talent, allowing players to gain experience in an international environment and to compete for a place in the England first team."

Surely Sam Powell is no longer classed as emerging talent at 26? Jack Hughes? Oli Holmes?

I get you have to have some experience but I say if they're not pushing for the England first team then that's it, we have better players available to put in this squad who given 3-4 years in the Knights squad would be first team ready come 26/27.