Re: Under 16s competition : Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:29 pm  

rhinoms wrote:

Seth- I personally think all SL teams at the very least should run u15 ,u16 ,u19 & an A team with an u23 cut off but adding a 3 player of open age allowance.
The Acadamy teams should also play county games imo of course having the likes of the Midlands etc is an added and they should be welcomed into that system what do you think?

agree with this 100% pal

Re: Under 16s competition : Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:22 pm  

That would look like a good programme to me rhinoms, obviously an appropriate schedule at 15s and 16s to balance club commitments, but in principle I'd agree.

I disagree with people saying that a league structure shouldn't exist at club level, it's important to remember that the vast majority of players playing the game have no desire/limited potential to experience then progress on the performance pathway a structured league format (though needing some tweaking) very much has its place.

Re: Under 16s competition : Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:09 pm  

Seth wrote:

That would look like a good programme to me rhinoms, obviously an appropriate schedule at 15s and 16s to balance club commitments, but in principle I'd agree.

I disagree with people saying that a league structure shouldn't exist at club level, it's important to remember that the vast majority of players playing the game have no desire/limited potential to experience then progress on the performance pathway a structured league format (though needing some tweaking) very much has its place.

But does it need a structured league (eg a 10 team league so 18 game season) if you're picking the best youngsters out of it to go into u15's/u16's academy teams?

I think an element of a league structure has its place but only as part of the whole season rather than the be all and end all which it is at the moment.

If I had to design a, say u11's/u12's, season I'd go with something like this:

A 10-12 game season, but not a straight league. A mini league system. That should help avoid the situation of teams being in the wrong league and getting a hammering all season.
A cup competition.
Then a series of touch, tag, indoor, outdoor, small sided & festival-type competitions. They can be interspersed throughout the season.

I think these different formats of the sport are vital to developing skills that are often overlooked by amateur coaches.

Also, the amateur game has a dual role. It has to develop players but it also has to increase participation.

Re: Under 16s competition : Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:06 am  

Him, they may well be good for skills development, but actual participation would drop massively. Kids don't want to play without competition ( a league). Remember the sport is competing with football at these age groups.

Re: Under 16s competition : Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:44 am  

Gotcha wrote:

Him, they may well be good for skills development, but actual participation would drop massively. Kids don't want to play without competition ( a league). Remember the sport is competing with football at these age groups.

They're still competing just not in a straight league structure for the whole season.

Besides I reckon would massively increase rather than drop. I think there are large amounts of kids out there who would enjoy,say, a 6-a-side touch competition/festival rather than playing East Leeds away.

The ones who simply enjoy a straight league structure of 13-a-side are very few and far between and you're more than likely going to keep them anyway.

Re: Under 16s competition : Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:00 am  

Him wrote:

But does it need a structured league (eg a 10 team league so 18 game season) if you're picking the best youngsters out of it to go into u15's/u16's academy teams?

I think an element of a league structure has its place but only as part of the whole season rather than the be all and end all which it is at the moment.

If I had to design a, say u11's/u12's, season I'd go with something like this:

A 10-12 game season, but not a straight league. A mini league system. That should help avoid the situation of teams being in the wrong league and getting a hammering all season.
A cup competition.
Then a series of touch, tag, indoor, outdoor, small sided & festival-type competitions. They can be interspersed throughout the season.

I think these different formats of the sport are vital to developing skills that are often overlooked by amateur coaches.

Also, the amateur game has a dual role. It has to develop players but it also has to increase participation.

Completely agree with this at Community level.

It would cater for the kids who are quartile 4 and possibly small in stature yet mentally quite mature and astute. Touch competitions would allow them to show their ability instead of being suffocated by the physicality of a mainly quartile 1 & 2 competition.

Re: Under 16s competition : Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:12 am  

Him wrote:

They're still competing just not in a straight league structure for the whole season.

Besides I reckon would massively increase rather than drop. I think there are large amounts of kids out there who would enjoy,say, a 6-a-side touch competition/festival rather than playing East Leeds away.

The ones who simply enjoy a straight league structure of 13-a-side are very few and far between and you're more than likely going to keep them anyway.

Sorry but I think you are incorrect on that. The good players, the ones who stand out, are the ones who are most competitive and want the games to matter. They are the ones you would lose to other sports without it. Certainly the ones in our team who know how great Siddal are, and clubs like East Leeds, want to be playing them.

The lesser players, I agree might possibly prefer it, but it would hardly make the competition at the top level the best in the future, if you lose quality potential but make up the numbers with best of a lesser bunch.

Re: Under 16s competition : Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:19 am  

Gotcha wrote:

Sorry but I think you are incorrect on that. The good players, the ones who stand out, are the ones who are most competitive and want the games to matter. They are the ones you would lose to other sports without it. Certainly the ones in our team who know how great Siddal are, and clubs like East Leeds, want to be playing them.

The lesser players, I agree might possibly prefer it, but it would hardly make the competition at the top level the best in the future, if you lose quality potential but make up the numbers with best of a lesser bunch.

You completely misunderstand the reason why most of these kids are the better players. In most cases it's because they're the biggest or fastest or both on rare occasions it's because they're skilled.

I've lost count of the number of lads who've turned up at Scholarships having scored 60, 70, 80 tries or more in the U14 season yet haven't got a clue how to pass a ball, understand a 2 v 1, tackle technically correct and have no comprehension of special awareness, tactics, team play etc..

We lose a lot of these types of kids because once they reach 16 years old their peers are physically catching them up and they don't have the necessary skills to compete anymore.

Re: Under 16s competition : Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:39 am  

The Avenger wrote:

You completely misunderstand the reason why most of these kids are the better players. In most cases it's because they're the biggest or fastest or both on rare occasions it's because they're skilled.

I've lost count of the number of lads who've turned up at Scholarships having scored 60, 70, 80 tries or more in the U14 season yet haven't got a clue how to pass a ball, understand a 2 v 1, tackle technically correct and have no comprehension of special awareness, tactics, team play etc..

We lose a lot of these types of kids because once they reach 16 years old their peers are physically catching them up and they don't have the necessary skills to compete anymore.

Having played the game, coached the Juniors, scouted for clubs, I don't think I do misunderstand the point at all. I understand the argument, but you are simply tarring all players with the same brush, which is massively short sighted.

It is very easy for people to keep saying "oh they catch up by 16", in terms of size that may well be correct. But when I said the good players are the ones that want the competition, I was not talking about size, I was talking about natural ability.

The age group I am talking about are 13's,14's. There is not many that just start playing the game at that age, there is some, but not many. Most in that age category have been playing for at least three years. The stand out players at that age are the ones who go on if they keep to it. Very rare one of the lesser players at that group would make a future out of it.

If you lose those good players to the game because all you can offer is some pointless tag rugby, the future competitions will be much the worse.

Therefore, the argument might well be correct for young age groups, which are none competitive anyway, but once you are of high school age the balance needs to be right, and needs a level of competition. Totally agree there is certain things you should work on with the players before other things, but not taking away competition.

Re: Under 16s competition : Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:53 am  

Gotcha wrote:

Having played the game, coached the Juniors, scouted for clubs, I don't think I do misunderstand the point at all. I understand the argument, but you are simply tarring all players with the same brush, which is massively short sighted.

It is very easy for people to keep saying "oh they catch up by 16", in terms of size that may well be correct. But when I said the good players are the ones that want the competition, I was not talking about size, I was talking about natural ability.

The age group I am talking about are 13's,14's. There is not many that just start playing the game at that age, there is some, but not many. Most in that age category have been playing for at least three years. The stand out players at that age are the ones who go on if they keep to it. Very rare one of the lesser players at that group would make a future out of it.

If you lose those good players to the game because all you can offer is some pointless tag rugby, the future competitions will be much the worse.

Therefore, the argument might well be correct for young age groups, which are none competitive anyway, but once you are of high school age the balance needs to be right, and needs a level of competition. Totally agree there is certain things you should work on with the players before other things, but not taking away competition.

Which is why I used the word most, I know there are exceptions but the majority of juniors do not fall into the bracket you're describing.

There are quartile 4 kids who if they were a month younger would be playing in the year below and they're competing with quartile 1 kids who if they were a month older would be in the year above. That means a kid who could easily be an U13 is competing with kids who could easily be U15.

This isn't unusual, the quartile 3 & 4 players are at a huge disadvantage and as a result get neglected by coaches seeking wins and/or get completely swamped by the challenge of facing players much bigger and more physically developed.
That's off putting not only for the child but also the parent, resulting in many smaller but potentially excellent players leaving the game and we wonder why we can't produce quality halfbacks in this country.

The other edge of that sword is that the bigger (better) players also become disillusioned when they're no longer enjoying the benefits of being bigger and can't enjoy the successes that brings. In many of those cases the player has never been coached, I see it every week in my job as a professional Coach working with 12 to 19 year olds.

As Him said, there needs to be a balance which allows the players, big and small to express their skills and learn in a developmentally appropriate environment.
No ones suggesting zero competitions just a variety of competitions which allows all shapes and sizes, big and small and various levels of maturation to develop and grow their skills while enjoying the game.