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Re: BLM Rugby teams Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:27 am  

User avatarMild Rover wrote:
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edinburgh yorkie wrote:
it should not be ,black lives matter or white lives matter,it should be ALL LIVES MATTER>


The last is the clear implication of the first.

There was a guy talking about this yesterday on the BBC. I acknowledge limitations in a comparison between a campaign slogan and the names of charitable organisations; however, not many see Save the Children or Help the Aged as implying that other age groups are unimportant.
'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.
Re: BLM Rugby teams Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:30 am  

IR80 wrote:
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edinburgh yorkie wrote:
it should not be ,black lives matter or white lives matter,it should be ALL LIVES MATTER>

"prejudice is wrong"
"inequality and discrimination is wrong"

as you say, every individual matters, every group matters (even if we disagree with what they stand for), an opinion being abhorrent doesn't make it invalid.
It is rarely the message that is at fault on it's own, it's usually how that message is conveyed.
Re: BLM Rugby teams Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:08 am  

User avatarLarge Paws wrote:
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Some very good points being made by all.
I tend to like to see facts that back up the words being spoken.

Given that the latest 'troubles' were a reaction to the murder of George Floyd by a Police Officer, and the claims of Black people being disproportionately killed around the world by the Police, then it seems reasonable that there would be some actual evidence out there to support it.

There isn't, and unfortunately for those who seek to promote the argument, then what statistics there are, tend to destroy the argument.

A couple of quick ones, found with very little effort.

A Police Officer in the USA is 18 times more likely to be shot and killed by a Black person, than an unarmed Black person is, to be shot and killed by Police.

In the UK it is claimed that Black people are disproportionately (3 times) more likely to die in custody than a White person.

The population of the UK is approx. 3% Black, yet the Criminal Justice statistics show that 10% of those convicted of crime are Black.

In London, in 48% of murders, the suspects are Black. For the rest of the UK, in 13% of the murders the suspects are Black.

This would tend to suggest that Black are disproportionately more likely to enter into custody.

Now, I'm sure that there are many socio-economic factors that affect those figures, in exactly the same way as there are other factors involved when someone dies in Police custody.
If those who seek to vilify the Police use facts, then, surely fire, should be used to fight fire.

I apologise in advance, to anyone I may have offended by using facts.
Re: BLM Rugby teams Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:30 am  

easthullwesty User avatar
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Large Paws wrote:
Some very good points being made by all.
I tend to like to see facts that back up the words being spoken.

Given that the latest 'troubles' were a reaction to the murder of George Floyd by a Police Officer, and the claims of Black people being disproportionately killed around the world by the Police, then it seems reasonable that there would be some actual evidence out there to support it.

There isn't, and unfortunately for those who seek to promote the argument, then what statistics there are, tend to destroy the argument.

A couple of quick ones, found with very little effort.

A Police Officer in the USA is 18 times more likely to be shot and killed by a Black person, than an unarmed Black person is, to be shot and killed by Police.

In the UK it is claimed that Black people are disproportionately (3 times) more likely to die in custody than a White person.

The population of the UK is approx. 3% Black, yet the Criminal Justice statistics show that 10% of those convicted of crime are Black.

In London, in 48% of murders, the suspects are Black. For the rest of the UK, in 13% of the murders the suspects are Black.

This would tend to suggest that Black are disproportionately more likely to enter into custody.

Now, I'm sure that there are many socio-economic factors that affect those figures, in exactly the same way as there are other factors involved when someone dies in Police custody.
If those who seek to vilify the Police use facts, then, surely fire, should be used to fight fire.

I apologise in advance, to anyone I may have offended by using facts.


I absolutely agree with the message that racism is bad. I just don't see that BLM is the answer.

As you rightly say, as soon as you throw facts into the argument, it simply dispels the myth that black people are on the whole, unfairly targeted.

In the US for example, on the latest figures I can find (FBI website), the black population of the US accounts for 13% of the total population, yet commits 58% of the homicide. If you figure in that the black population is almost a 50/50 split between male and female, and that males are far more likely to commit violent crime, that means that 6.5% of the US population commit 58% of the murder. Thats not a racial issue, its a cultural issue!

In the US 50% of black males don't complete high school - cultural issue and a lack of quality schools

In the US 70% of black households are single parent. As a kicker, you are 13 x (Thirteen) more likely to serve time in prison if you come from a single parent household. That's a cultural issue which in fairness was brought around by an old democrat policy that made it financially beneficial to live in a single parent household.

As you alluded to, there are socioeconomic issues that the black community both in the US and the UK have that need to be dealt with, and I have no doubts at all that there are people who have to deal with racism on a daily basis. What I cannot concede however, is that the racism is either systemic or institutional. What institution is actively trying to stop black people from reaching their potential? Considering that you are more than 3 x as likely to die by the hands of the police as an unarmed white man than as an unarmed black man, it cant be the police. There will be racist officers, but to label the whole institution as racist is just lunacy. Its like calling all men rapists or all women child killers.

Instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water, we need to look at everything on an individual basis. The officer who killed George Floyd is rightfully going to answer for his crime, but he is certainly not indicative of a systemic issue. Where was the outcry about the black private security officers who were killed during the subsequent rioting? It seem's that black lives only matter when you can throw some kind of oppression into the mix, which is also bullshit!
Re: BLM Rugby teams Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:04 pm  

User avatarLarge Paws wrote:
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easthullwesty wrote:
I absolutely agree with the message that racism is bad. I just don't see that BLM is the answer.

As you rightly say, as soon as you throw facts into the argument, it simply dispels the myth that black people are on the whole, unfairly targeted.

In the US for example, on the latest figures I can find (FBI website), the black population of the US accounts for 13% of the total population, yet commits 58% of the homicide. If you figure in that the black population is almost a 50/50 split between male and female, and that males are far more likely to commit violent crime, that means that 6.5% of the US population commit 58% of the murder. Thats not a racial issue, its a cultural issue!

In the US 50% of black males don't complete high school - cultural issue and a lack of quality schools

In the US 70% of black households are single parent. As a kicker, you are 13 x (Thirteen) more likely to serve time in prison if you come from a single parent household. That's a cultural issue which in fairness was brought around by an old democrat policy that made it financially beneficial to live in a single parent household.

As you alluded to, there are socioeconomic issues that the black community both in the US and the UK have that need to be dealt with, and I have no doubts at all that there are people who have to deal with racism on a daily basis. What I cannot concede however, is that the racism is either systemic or institutional. What institution is actively trying to stop black people from reaching their potential? Considering that you are more than 3 x as likely to die by the hands of the police as an unarmed white man than as an unarmed black man, it cant be the police. There will be racist officers, but to label the whole institution as racist is just lunacy. Its like calling all men rapists or all women child killers.

Instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water, we need to look at everything on an individual basis. The officer who killed George Floyd is rightfully going to answer for his crime, but he is certainly not indicative of a systemic issue. Where was the outcry about the black private security officers who were killed during the subsequent rioting? It seem's that black lives only matter when you can throw some kind of oppression into the mix, which is also bullshit!


Absolutely.
Re: BLM Rugby teams Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:05 am  

OmneFC wrote:
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I think a lot of you are missing the point entirely, and that is partly down to the fact that this is primarily an American issue, which isnt to say we don't have some of the same problems here

The current state in the US is that the system has been actively designed to incarcerate Black men at greater rates then whites, slavery might have ended but the state just found other ways of keeping them down. A large proportion of the country werent happy with Black equality and so found other means of keeping them off the streets. The easiest example of this is when crack cocaine had 6 times the prison sentence of powdered cocaine - despite it being the same substance.

All lives do matter, but you dont tell the fireman that all houses matter when he is putting out the one on fire.

Hull being one of the whitest cities in the country probably doesnt give most people there the perspective to understand fully, but other people becoming more equal doesnt take anything away from you.

We dont need a banner flying, because White lives have always mattered, now lets make sure everyone else does too
Re: BLM Rugby teams Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:06 am  

User avatarComeOnYouUll wrote:
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OmneFC wrote:
I think a lot of you are missing the point entirely, and that is partly down to the fact that this is primarily an American issue, which isnt to say we don't have some of the same problems here

The current state in the US is that the system has been actively designed to incarcerate Black men at greater rates then whites, slavery might have ended but the state just found other ways of keeping them down. A large proportion of the country werent happy with Black equality and so found other means of keeping them off the streets. The easiest example of this is when crack cocaine had 6 times the prison sentence of powdered cocaine - despite it being the same substance.

All lives do matter, but you dont tell the fireman that all houses matter when he is putting out the one on fire.

Hull being one of the whitest cities in the country probably doesnt give most people there the perspective to understand fully, but other people becoming more equal doesnt take anything away from you.

We dont need a banner flying, because White lives have always mattered, now lets make sure everyone else does too



Well said.

I expect some people on here also have issues with the MOBO Awards and International Women's Day.
Re: BLM Rugby teams Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:10 am  

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OmneFC wrote:
I think a lot of you are missing the point entirely, and that is partly down to the fact that this is primarily an American issue, which isnt to say we don't have some of the same problems here

The current state in the US is that the system has been actively designed to incarcerate Black men at greater rates then whites, slavery might have ended but the state just found other ways of keeping them down. A large proportion of the country werent happy with Black equality and so found other means of keeping them off the streets. The easiest example of this is when crack cocaine had 6 times the prison sentence of powdered cocaine - despite it being the same substance.

All lives do matter, but you dont tell the fireman that all houses matter when he is putting out the one on fire.

Hull being one of the whitest cities in the country probably doesnt give most people there the perspective to understand fully, but other people becoming more equal doesnt take anything away from you.

We dont need a banner flying, because White lives have always mattered, now lets make sure everyone else does too


I take it that the Hull comment was aimed at me?

I was born in Hull but grew up in the middles east. I also spent 5 years living and working in Shanghai as well as 6 years living in south Carolina. Whilst in the US i was in charge of a mostly black team of engineers. I've experienced living in very racially diverse parts of the world and had many many conversations with friends, black, white and asian, about the issues that America seems to suffer with. They all, to a man point to cultural issues first and foremost.

I am not arguing about racism existing, of course it does, but there is not an institution aimed at keeping them down. The issue is far far deeper than BLM will have you believe. Why is everyone oppressed? If you're black, its the white mans fault, if you're white its the one percent! No-one is stopping you from getting on in life except you. It's far easier to call victim than it is to take some responsibility for your own actions.
Re: BLM Rugby teams Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:45 am  

OmneFC wrote:
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easthullwesty wrote:
No-one is stopping you from getting on in life except you. It's far easier to call victim than it is to take some responsibility for your own actions.


The lack of equality across everything makes this patently untrue.

If you live in a poor area, you go to a worse school, your teachers arent quite as good, you get worse grades, get a worse job, on a lower income and are less likely to have financial support from your family

Now compound that with being BAME and having racism added to it.

No one is stopping you trying, but plenty of structures prevent you from achieving it as easily as others.
Re: BLM Rugby teams Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:56 pm  

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OmneFC wrote:
The lack of equality across everything makes this patently untrue.

If you live in a poor area, you go to a worse school, your teachers arent quite as good, you get worse grades, get a worse job, on a lower income and are less likely to have financial support from your family

Now compound that with being BAME and having racism added to it.

No one is stopping you trying, but plenty of structures prevent you from achieving it as easily as others.


Equality of opportunity or outcome.

It makes it harder no doubt, but certainly not impossible. There are cultural issues within these communities that compound racial problems that they no doubt experience. But again, what structures are in place specifically to keep black people down?
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