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Re: Hampshire v Williams
Post Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:54 am
Posted by homme vaste on Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:54 am
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vastman wrote:
That wasn't really my point, it was more why we seem to persist with some players and not with others.

Of course Williams is currently better and so he should be he's been a SL regular for a number of years. However there is the rub and where I totally disagree with you. Williams is nowhere near as good as he should be at this point in his career as he gets exposed in every international he plays in.

Problem is he's functional which works at club level but he isn't inspirational as required at international level. Name me a single thing he did in any of the three tests? Maybe one try assist. We need so much more than that but we have absolutely no options.

At least Hampshire provides flashes of individual genius, I just never see that in Williams.

Basically I'm just sick of robotic system driven players used at the top levels of the UK game. What I want is far more strong willed, cocky and independent minded individuals.


Lets be honest, at Super League level Gale looks like the man, he is cocky and is the type of half that just gets under the oppositions skins, a player that oppositions fans love to hate and a club level he is bloody good, he can control a game very well and has got a great kicking game - Yet at international level he looks like a little boy out of his depth and goes into hiding, he is quite the opposite in and England shirt. Some players are very well suited to the international scene, they just play there usual game, okay they might not be the best in there position in terms of ability but they can perform on that level, not sure what it is - For some players it could be nerves, for others it could be playing around different players or maybe it`s the way they are being asked to play by WB just doesn't suit there game?
Re: Hampshire v Williams
Post Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:55 am
Posted by homme vaste on Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:55 am
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Apologies for going off on a tangent, my point is one that is separate to the current debate but one that I believe should be considered when selecting/reelecting players to play for England.
Re: Hampshire v Williams
Post Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:34 pm
Posted by PopTart on Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:34 pm
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I agree with your point HV.
It is also sometimes about playing a different structure with a different team.
Gale plays well at Cas because he suits that style.
You like to think Bennett will work on that with him but as an example he's probably a better half back than Jake Connor but Connor looks like he can fit in any style in pretty much any position.

The same can apply at club. Those saying Hampshire hasn't shown it at his previous club may be surprised if Wakefield suits his style more and he turns their perception around.
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Re: Hampshire v Williams
Post Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:16 pm
Posted by djcool on Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:16 pm
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And Connor as the grubiness that a a good half back needs to get under the oppositions skin
Re: Hampshire v Williams
Post Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:33 pm
Posted by GET EM ON SIDE REF on Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:33 pm
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thebeagle wrote:
Brough should definitely have played for England more than once.
Best British half back for over 10 years.
If players with suspect temperament had always been ignored the great Alex Murphy would not have had GB caps.


If Brough was that good why did Leeds,Sts,Wire,Wigan come knocking on his door? or the NRL
Re: Hampshire v Williams
Post Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:35 pm
Posted by bellycouldtackle on Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:35 pm
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The reference to ability as a junior and pointing whoever may be interested in educating themselves in the direction of the Academy tour of 2012 videos that are readily available to watch, if you tube to do so , was to prove the obvious point I was making about God given talent. God given talent as a youngster of course has a massive effect of the ability of said player to go on to great things as a senior, only a dullard would think otherwise. There are many reasons why perhaps some talented young players have not gone on to achieve as much as hoped, in my opinion luck, attitude and coaching are principle among these.
Re: Hampshire v Williams
Post Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:44 pm
Posted by vastman on Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:44 pm
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GET EM ON SIDE REF wrote:
If Brough was that good why did Leeds,Sts,Wire,Wigan come knocking on his door? or the NRL


He may or may not be the best British HB of the last 10 years but the fact that any of the above didn'y sign him is irrelevant.

Shudds made him a huge offer way bigger than anyone else and with Brough's off field issues it was an offer he couldn't refuse - this is one of the few things I claim o know as fact.

As it happens I think Hudds got a good deal and he was worth every penny they paid him.
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Re: Hampshire v Williams
Post Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:45 pm
Posted by vastman on Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:45 pm
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bellycouldtackle wrote:
The reference to ability as a junior and pointing whoever may be interested in educating themselves in the direction of the Academy tour of 2012 videos that are readily available to watch, if you tube to do so , was to prove the obvious point I was making about God given talent. God given talent as a youngster of course has a massive effect of the ability of said player to go on to great things as a senior, only a dullard would think otherwise. There are many reasons why perhaps some talented young players have not gone on to achieve as much as hoped, in my opinion luck, attitude and coaching are principle among these.


That's fair enough.
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Re: Hampshire v Williams
Post Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:20 pm
Posted by DAVE@CAS1990 on Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:20 pm
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Cracking debate this guys.

I think a lot of it goes back to the promotion and relegation thing - Wakefield last year for example were fighting for £75k just for finishing fifth. It makes it very difficult for coaches to look at the long term when picking their team and will almost always go for a seasoned player who will guarantee you a 7/10 performance, rather than a young player who might give you an 8 but also a 3....

With regard to Rocky his career is very much in his own hands. He's been offered a deal by Wakefield which he has initially rejected because "the numbers weren't right". Well, I'm afraid him or his agent are not really in a position to be that bold. He's had a very stuttering career up to press, and considering he's one of 4 pivots at Wakefield with no guarantees of being a first choice, I don't see where else a better offer will come from.

He has potential, but at this point I personally feel like he's miles away from fulfilling it - first and foremost he needs to nail down a regular spot at HB.

I appreciate I'm biased but when you're looking at internationals a few years down the line Trueman at 19 is likely to overtake him in the non too distant future if he doesn't nail that spot down. It's impossible to say who will be better but he's certainly getting the better opportunities and he's obviously getting the recognition having won young player of the year.

At the moment no SL HB really looks like making the international HB spot their own. Williams and Myler are awfully average, and whilst Gale excels at Cas, the polar difference between how cas play and how Bennett wants England to play means he's struggled to adapt his game. And as such, shown his game isn't the right fit for England. I think it's a little naive for some to say he simply goes missing for England - I can't imagine Bennett giving him a game plan of "play like you do for cas". He's just not the right fit. As such I wouldn't even consider Gale under Bennett.

The other issue is England at international level simply don't play enough games. It must be bloody tough to run a game from HB when as a squad you're only together for a few weeks a year for a handful of games, playing completely different systems to what you've played all year.

Granted other nations are the same, but given SOO in Australia, it's not so much of an alien concept to their players
Re: Hampshire v Williams
Post Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:35 pm
Posted by thepimp007 on Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:35 pm
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vastman wrote:

Basically I'm just sick of robotic system driven players used at the top levels of the UK game. What I want is far more strong willed, cocky and independent minded individuals.


Massively agree. Until we get someone like that we will be forever crying out for a top half back. Brough is the closest to that explanation in SL and it is a travesty not one coach has centralised him in the international team to see how he would fare
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