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Re: Accounts
Post Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:05 pm
Posted by rubber duckie on Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:05 pm
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ShortArse wrote:
if the crowds dont come and the sky money doesnt improve, there is only 1 solution.
cut the wages to the players
all other businesses work this work.
for sport to survive fans have to accept that the owners should not be expected to lose money, but that clubs have to break even. football hasnt learnt this yet (isnt the average EFL wage bill > 100% of income ???) and if RL doesnt learn it, clubs will go under when people like IL and McManus get bored of being sugar daddies.

McManus isn't the sugardaddy. They have a silent backer that puts up most the money.
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Re: Accounts
Post Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:19 pm
Posted by Orrell Lad on Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:19 pm
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Jukesays I agree with a lot of what you say, we should make more of an effort as fans to talk up the club and look for the positives.

However, that needs to come from the top too (the club). For me personally - and many others - they have totally neglected and took for granted the fanbase and are now seeing the returns of that. I applaud them for investing in the squad, and for raising the age of free entry for kids and investing in a money-making facility.

But they have totally failed to ENGAGE with fans in a positive meaningful way for the last 4-5 years. It's a head-scratcher because in the early years of IL's tenure it was an area where they succeeded really well. I hope the financial headaches act as a wake up call for the future.

Quite simply, we have lost 5,000 fans on average in 6 years.

5,000 x £20 x 14 home games = £1.4m a season.
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Re: Accounts
Post Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:42 pm
Posted by Redvee69 on Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:42 pm
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Mike coleman is the money behind saints, a hedge fund manager based in singapore and geneva although he is st.helens born and bred. Saints are basically owned by one of his companys called crowther holdings who are registered in the caymen islands, i believe he owns between 65 snd 85% of the shares and has pumped around 20 million in since the move to the new stadium.
Re: Accounts
Post Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:28 pm
Posted by warrior1872 on Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:28 pm
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rubber duckie wrote:
McManus isn't the sugardaddy. They have a silent backer that puts up most the money.

You can't have a silent backer as all investors have to pass the test to see if you are basically fit and proper
Re: Accounts
Post Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:01 pm
Posted by rubber duckie on Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:01 pm
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warrior1872 wrote:
You can't have a silent backer as all investors have to pass the test to see if you are basically fit and proper

Silent as he wants no board position. He isn't unknown...heard his name mentioned a couple of times...Saddened might enlighten us. He dug deep for Naq in his last investment. That was the last time I heard him mentioned.
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Re: Accounts
Post Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:37 pm
Posted by Jukesays on Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:37 pm
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Orrell Lad wrote:
Jukesays I agree with a lot of what you say, we should make more of an effort as fans to talk up the club and look for the positives.

However, that needs to come from the top too (the club). For me personally - and many others - they have totally neglected and took for granted the fanbase and are now seeing the returns of that. I applaud them for investing in the squad, and for raising the age of free entry for kids and investing in a money-making facility.

But they have totally failed to ENGAGE with fans in a positive meaningful way for the last 4-5 years. It's a head-scratcher because in the early years of IL's tenure it was an area where they succeeded really well. I hope the financial headaches act as a wake up call for the future.

Quite simply, we have lost 5,000 fans on average in 6 years.

5,000 x £20 x 14 home games = £1.4m a season.


Not a perfect excuse I know But

I would guess engaging with the fans became a bit of a drag the way the fans forums went, nothing but chances for over zealous individuals who see themselves as no1 fans whi know better than the people in charge whether that be the management, the coaches and even the players at times.
At the same time there was the constant criticism on facebook/forums like this etc of leneghan and Wayne for a whole host of ridiculous reasons (yes there were issues in there at timesbuy they were blown up to 10x times what they were).
There seemed to be a whole group of people who for whatever reason for around 5 years seemed to WANT leneghan and Wane to fail and to be honest only on the last 5/6 weeks has thought subsided some what.
IMO that's a big part of a lot of the malaise around the club and coupled with a lot of the other things I pointed out its contributed tona lack of enthusiasm around the place.
DESPITE 3 GF finals a world club challenge and cc final appearances.

The club have no doubt made a lot of mistakes in that period but to answer the other poster who commented on my post I would argue that 80% of the things the club have done is right and if 20% was wrong that's not too bad.

BUT I'd guess that 80% of posts/comments etc. Are negative with 20% positive.

I'd just ask people to try and be fair in both criticism and praise and imo that just doesn't seem to happen not only with regards to Wigan, its management, coaches and players but the game in general (and to an extent life in general).
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Re: Accounts
Post Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:40 pm
Posted by Redvee69 on Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:40 pm
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Mike coleman is a director of saints
Re: Accounts
Post Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:06 pm
Posted by Trainman on Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:06 pm
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Let’s be honest. Though far from ideal as long as Leneghan is prepared to foot the bill we’ll be fine.

I’m no expert but I’d surmise that the majority of sporting clubs are supported by individuals or a consortium of financial backers, without these people a lot of clubs would fold.
Re: Accounts
Post Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:23 pm
Posted by Jukesays on Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:23 pm
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sergeant pepper wrote:
So basically just sit there and applaud things that don't deserve it? Great idea!

I'll be at more games next season as they've invested in quality players, but that's not always been the case. When was the last true big name we signed prior to Burgess or Hastings? Hoffman in 2012? Trent perhaps? I'm sure 2012 saw an upturn in attendance after we signed the 3 players from the Storm. Wigan have always had quality home grown talent & star names - big names are just as much a part of our DNA & history as what our successful academy is imo. Don't expect everyone to be happy when that stops.

Let's look at the on the field product - we've gone from watching guys like Renouf, Lam and Dallas to Sammut, Sarginson and Marshall. No disrespect to Sarge, as I like the guy, but I know who I'd rather pay to see. Also in regards to performance, I do buy into the blame Wane theory. The success he brought in was great, but my god a massive proportion of the season wasn't fun. We'd turn up one week then watch Cas put 40 on us the week after. How many times have fans come home disheartened after another lackluster performance?

Let's look at price, - i'm now paying more to watch Wigan Vs Saints than I was 20 years ago, but back then it was Long Vs Lam, Rads Vs Wellens, Faz Vs Scully, Newton vs KFC etc. Please don't sit there and tell me we are even close to that. Paying more for a lesser product - where else does that happen?

Let's look at gate revenues - we used to have games Vs Bradford compared to next season Vs Toronto. What's that crowd going to look like? Add in Hudsnand Catalans too. How much do we lose during those fixtures? What about the impact of Thursday night games? How much does that shave off an attendance? Why would I cheer about those things, or should I ignore it and gloss over it? Should I big those games up to my friends 'come and watch us play Toronto - there'll be a great atmosphere'.

Let's looks at refs - imo we're absolutely at the bottom of the barrel with PR hungry guys like Hicks ruining games on a weekly basis. It was bad 15 years ago and the clubs kept their own counsel and went via the proper channels - how did that work out? The biggest tool of the lot of them, Ganson, got the top job. Imagine if in 15 years Hicks is the top guy! That's why I'm 100% behind McManus in what he's done - it quite simply isn't right how that final was officiated.

Let's talk about Sky - the product is amateurish both in production and talent. Most people won't watch it, but the RU coverage on BT is second to none imo. Great production at the matches and a weekly TV show that's entertaining and insightful. They've got a partnership that works for both of them. People who want to watch RU will buy BT and in turn they get appreciated by them via quality content.

I'm majorly excited to see Wigan next year, but that's because they've rectified some is the issues/gripes many people had. I'm not however going to sit here and say we're currently in some kind of golden age of RL in the UK.


Lots of individual points that I would argue against there but I'll just pick out a few

Refs - there no better or worse than 15/25 years ago.
They're under miles more scrutiny and if coaches/fans etc spent as much time worrying about their own misgivings instead of blaming refs they'd maybe improve rather than blame everyone else for their own failures

Ticket prices - your paying more now than 15=20 years ago.
Well theres a surprise, the club have put cheaper season tickets for the east stand (something I'd argued for years about as I paid 130 for kids tickets in esdt stand whilst juniors used to get in for 30 in the south) but now they get the same.prices as east? Raised the free age to 8.
And 235 ish for the east stand for 14 home games!
Plus academy (and a-team next year) and other things like discounts at shop.

Less than £17 a game!!!!
South stand even cheaper at around £14 a game???

I don't know what season ticket prices were in 2000 through 2005 ish but I do know they were equally good value and we were losing lots of money back then with crowds not too dissimilar to now WITH all the stars you talk about. We were just bank rolled by Whelan.
And let's not forget what state we were in around then!

And also in the Bradford thing, the only reason we wont be playing Bradford in front of big crowds (and I think you'd be surprised if you look back, co suffering the sometimes brought 3/4/5k the crowds weren't that big) is because of Bradord and NOT Wigan.
And when they over spent look what happened to them.
Yet the person who has been the biggest single reason behind our upturn and put money Into the club etc has been largely criticised and often slandered and maligned for the past 5 years for what?

We can talk all day about Star names, but the reality is the best players will always play in the NRL as the money on offer is vastly better than what we can offer (yes marquee etc exists but players aren't going to come unless there are other reasons I.e. disciplinary, and the few who want to try something differemt).

Hoffman/Finch/Lima also came because of the Melbourne salary cap issues, not a fair comparison.

But since then leneghan purchases IMO have matched most other clubs if not better ( yes maybe Wire have bought more but in reality where has that got them) whilst weve brought umpteen juniors through the ranks and turned them Into internationals at the top for the British game.

1 final thing
You say
"]So basically just sit there and applaud things that don't deserve it? Great idea!"
This is a typical response.
I NEVER EVER EVER SAID THAT

I said stop doing it st every opportunity
I said reduce the criticisms
I said try and give balanced views and give praise where it's due in fair & equal measures rather than what currently happens which is 5 good performances or good things at the club and nothing or little said.
1 x bad performance and it's like a lynch mob with pitch forks and 10 x times the amount of things said.

I'll leave it at this
I have a saying that people get what people deserve.

And if "WE" continue to treat our club as we currently are without giving the club support when we can, the backing it deserves when in trouble times etc and all of us doing what we can to give a balanced view the we will get what we deserve.
Wont matter to me, I watched them in the 70s and early 80s when we were gash, I watched the glory years (when crowds weren't what a lot of people think they were and prices were pro rata similar) and I watched us terrible again on 97 and 2005/6 and from 2007 when leneghan took over the club have given me as much joy every year with minimal downs and lots of ups.

I wasnt Lams biggest fan early season, but I didn't want his head on a platter and go screaming for change, I'm enjoying the rugby now and pleasantly happy with where we are now but I'm not carried away as were not as good as we need to be.so I wont be doing a Rubber Duckie and going overboard.

But I can't wait for the next 6 weeks whatever happens!
Enjoy people !
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Re: Accounts
Post Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:16 pm
Posted by warrior1872 on Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:16 pm
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Redvee69 wrote:
Mike coleman is a director of saints

Well that will shut rubber duckie up that means he will have had to pass the fit and proper test just like lenagan and Moran
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