The Loose Forward : Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:23 am  

As Lockers is slowly coming to the end of his career I would who people would like to see in the 13 shirt at Wigan.
Over the decades we've been blessed, from Hanley, to Clarke to Faz and now Lockers we've genuinely seen world class wearing 13 at Wigan over and over again.

The interesting element and point of discussion for me is what do we want from a 13? Looking at the names mentioned they all played the game very differently, Hanley was like a second 6 making up the 'golden triangle' with Greg and Edwards, Clark was more of a running SR and top tackler, while both Faz and Lockers have showcased a world class all-round game in the 13 shirt. Both men can pass like a half linking the play, drive in the ball in like a prop and have the world rate to tackle for 60 mins plus covering so much defensive ground in the middle of the pitch.
IMO, both this two have been outstanding in their time and truly are/were arguably the best in their position in they pomp.

Nowadays we see the 'loose forward' role used differently... Gallen and Taumalolo are outstanding 60-80 min props who give a team so much extra 'grunt' in the middle with an amazing workload with a constant '3rd prop' on the pitch. Of course they do on occasion move the play, but aren't known for their ball playing ability.

We've seen tackle machines at 13, the likes of Dallas Johnson, Ashley Harrison etc who's job it is to get through a serious amount of defensive work covering not just the middle but also moving slightly further out wide to ensure the defensive is rock solid, we once had a bloke by the name of Ian Potter, usually a second row but did wear the 13 shirt as a tackle machine.

In the modern game the 'link man' is hard to find, many thought Greg Burke could be an all-rounder, with a strong build and soft hands to link the play, but it didn't happen. I feel Jake Trbojevic over at Manly is one of the few ball playing 13s left, there's a young kid called Cameron Murray over at Souths who can play and to a lesser degree Elijah Taylor.

My question is... who should play 13 post Lockers, and what type of 13 do we need?

Re: The Loose Forward : Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:48 am  

As I've said previously, Jake Trbojevic would be my choice in an 'ideal world' scenario. Perhaps the only one who could directly replace Lockers, like for like. Unfortunately that's obviously not going to happen so there's a discussion to be had as, moving forward, there is no way to replace Lockers without a different approach.

I've been buoyed to see us finally being able to win without him this year. Even though we haven't quite got over the 'Lockers drop-off' when he's not on the pitch it certainly isn't as pronounced as in previous years. I think having Hastings on the pitch next year will further negate it too.

Whatever we do, it will take a slightly different approach. Smithies' workrate and agrression in the middle is one way to go but I think this would be dependant on a creative 6 and 7 combination. Again, I've been encouraged by what I've seen of French so far. Especially his ability to make breaks in the middle of the park. We already know what Hastings is capable of and I really feel that if that combination fires as it should and with Hardaker running off the back of them, that will go a long way to addressing the creativity we would lose without a ball playing 13.

Re: The Loose Forward : Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:55 am  

Phuzzy wrote:

As I've said previously, Jake Trbojevic would be my choice in an 'ideal world' scenario. Perhaps the only one who could directly replace Lockers, like for like. Unfortunately that's obviously not going to happen so there's a discussion to be had as, moving forward, there is no way to replace Lockers without a different approach.

I've been buoyed to see us finally being able to win without him this year. Even though we haven't quite got over the 'Lockers drop-off' when he's not on the pitch it certainly isn't as pronounced as in previous years. I think having Hastings on the pitch next year will further negate it too.

Whatever we do, it will take a slightly different approach. Smithies' workrate and agrression in the middle is one way to go but I think this would be dependant on a creative 6 and 7 combination. Again, I've been encouraged by what I've seen of French so far. Especially his ability to make breaks in the middle of the park. We already know what Hastings is capable of and I really feel that if that combination fires as it should and with Hardaker running off the back of them, that will go a long way to addressing the creativity we would lose without a ball playing 13.

Good post.

I agree. If we showcase more creativity from our halves and dummy half from 'the middle' we can not be as dependant to need a 13 who links to the 6 and 7 who are split and playing either side of the ruck.

Out of interest, what position do you see French playing next season?

Re: The Loose Forward : Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:15 pm  

Last Son of Wigan wrote:

Good post.

I agree. If we showcase more creativity from our halves and dummy half from 'the middle' we can not be as dependant to need a 13 who links to the 6 and 7 who are split and playing either side of the ruck.

Out of interest, what position do you see French playing next season?

I'm really looking forward to seeing him in a 6/7 combination with Hastings. I get the point people have made about him not playing there much but I really think it could thrive.

Hastings is very much an 'all across the park' type of player and his ability to create a gap is 2nd to none in SL. I think he has 30-odd try assists this season and that doesn't take into consideration the number of breaks he makes and gaps he creates (unless they lead to a try, of course). French has already shown, both in the NRL and in his start against Warrington, that he needs very little space indeed to operate. His break down the middle for his 'no try' in that game was electric and had a speed off the mark I hadn't seen in some time on these shores. Can you imagine how devastating he could be with some actual gaps to work with?

I really am optimistic that this partnership will work. I know that are variables and imponderables with any new combination and some don't work despite looking on paper to be ideal. For some reason I just have a gut feeling about this one though. If it does we then have Zak running off the back of them and we saw how devastating that was for Cas in 2017.

Fingers crossed, I guess, to some extent. Either way we are in for interesting times next season!

Re: The Loose Forward : Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:20 pm  

Last Son of Wigan wrote:

As Lockers is slowly coming to the end of his career I would who people would like to see in the 13 shirt at Wigan.
Over the decades we've been blessed, from Hanley, to Clarke to Faz and now Lockers we've genuinely seen world class wearing 13 at Wigan over and over again.

The interesting element and point of discussion for me is what do we want from a 13? Looking at the names mentioned they all played the game very differently, Hanley was like a second 6 making up the 'golden triangle' with Greg and Edwards, Clark was more of a running SR and top tackler, while both Faz and Lockers have showcased a world class all-round game in the 13 shirt. Both men can pass like a half linking the play, drive in the ball in like a prop and have the world rate to tackle for 60 mins plus covering so much defensive ground in the middle of the pitch.
IMO, both this two have been outstanding in their time and truly are/were arguably the best in their position in they pomp.

Nowadays we see the 'loose forward' role used differently... Gallen and Taumalolo are outstanding 60-80 min props who give a team so much extra 'grunt' in the middle with an amazing workload with a constant '3rd prop' on the pitch. Of course they do on occasion move the play, but aren't known for their ball playing ability.

We've seen tackle machines at 13, the likes of Dallas Johnson, Ashley Harrison etc who's job it is to get through a serious amount of defensive work covering not just the middle but also moving slightly further out wide to ensure the defensive is rock solid, we once had a bloke by the name of Ian Potter, usually a second row but did wear the 13 shirt as a tackle machine.

In the modern game the 'link man' is hard to find, many thought Greg Burke could be an all-rounder, with a strong build and soft hands to link the play, but it didn't happen. I feel Jake Trbojevic over at Manly is one of the few ball playing 13s left, there's a young kid called Cameron Murray over at Souths who can play and to a lesser degree Elijah Taylor.

My question is... who should play 13 post Lockers, and what type of 13 do we need?

Think we have to be pragmatic and play the style of player that we can get, rather than the one we would like. I think it's a real shame that, for whatever reason, we're seeing fewer and fewer ball playing 13s, a real loss to the game. Even so, there's literally not a single player in my mind in the country who could come in and do a similar job to SOL to a good level. Had we produced a half back who was big enough, say Barrett, then that would be an option, but in the absence of that we have to look to make the best of a different style.

Until him leaving, that would've been Bateman. In his absence, Smithies looks like the obvious successor so long as we can get another 12 months out of Lockers.

Re: The Loose Forward : Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:40 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

I'm really looking forward to seeing him in a 6/7 combination with Hastings. I get the point people have made about him not playing there much but I really think it could thrive.

Hastings is very much an 'all across the park' type of player and his ability to create a gap is 2nd to none in SL. I think he has 30-odd try assists this season and that doesn't take into consideration the number of breaks he makes and gaps he creates (unless they lead to a try, of course). French has already shown, both in the NRL and in his start against Warrington, that he needs very little space indeed to operate. His break down the middle for his 'no try' in that game was electric and had a speed off the mark I hadn't seen in some time on these shores. Can you imagine how devastating he could be with some actual gaps to work with?

I really am optimistic that this partnership will work. I know that are variables and imponderables with any new combination and some don't work despite looking on paper to be ideal. For some reason I just have a gut feeling about this one though. If it does we then have Zak running off the back of them and we saw how devastating that was for Cas in 2017.

Fingers crossed, I guess, to some extent. Either way we are in for interesting times next season!

I have to say even though there's still so much left in this season (potentially a trip to the GF) I can't help but already be excited for 2020, the calibre of player and how they play really does seem promising.

And yes, French as a 6 playing off Hastings as a creator and first receiver controlling the flow of play both left and right of the ruck would be something to see.

Re: The Loose Forward : Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:47 pm  

Cherry_&_White wrote:

Think we have to be pragmatic and play the style of player that we can get, rather than the one we would like. I think it's a real shame that, for whatever reason, we're seeing fewer and fewer ball playing 13s, a real loss to the game. Even so, there's literally not a single player in my mind in the country who could come in and do a similar job to SOL to a good level. Had we produced a half back who was big enough, say Barrett, then that would be an option, but in the absence of that we have to look to make the best of a different style.

Until him leaving, that would've been Bateman. In his absence, Smithies looks like the obvious successor so long as we can get another 12 months out of Lockers.

You're right, hard to find a 13 who plays like Lockers, who for me has been an all-rounder who has the attributes to be a ball-playing link as well as carry the ball and tackle all day long etc.

Like others on here I did wonder if Josh Woods could bulk up and fill the spot, he has the hands after playing as a 7, but for me lacks the pace and acceleration to be a top half. But could he deal with the work rate and demands of the defensive duties of a 13? I don't know.

We've had Greg Burke, seemed to have the skillset, but it just didn't happen.

I once thought 'way back when' that Joe Westerman when he first burst onto the scene could have been the guy, but it wasn't meant to be.

I think on reflection that is why Lockers is so good.

Re: The Loose Forward : Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:06 pm  

Last Son of Wigan wrote:

You're right, hard to find a 13 who plays like Lockers, who for me has been an all-rounder who has the attributes to be a ball-playing link as well as carry the ball and tackle all day long etc.

Like others on here I did wonder if Josh Woods could bulk up and fill the spot, he has the hands after playing as a 7, but for me lacks the pace and acceleration to be a top half. But could he deal with the work rate and demands of the defensive duties of a 13? I don't know.

We've had Greg Burke, seemed to have the skillset, but it just didn't happen.

I once thought 'way back when' that Joe Westerman when he first burst onto the scene could have been the guy, but it wasn't meant to be.

I think on reflection that is why Lockers is so good.

Good shout on Westerman. Seemed as though he's been trained to play as a 'modern' 13 as his career progressed. Injuries too, but he's definitely a player who in different circumstances could have been more in that style.

Another who has been very, very disappointing is Liam Sutcliffe. Turned out to be an average squaddie, but he looked all the world like he would develop into a very good ball playing forward.

Re: The Loose Forward : Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:15 pm  

Cherry_&_White wrote:

Good shout on Westerman. Seemed as though he's been trained to play as a 'modern' 13 as his career progressed. Injuries too, but he's definitely a player who in different circumstances could have been more in that style.

Another who has been very, very disappointing is Liam Sutcliffe. Turned out to be an average squaddie, but he looked all the world like he would develop into a very good ball playing forward.

Totally agree on both Westerman and Sutcliffe. I remember a few years back hearing a rumour that Wane liked him and enquired about him. I wonder how he would have developed if he'd had come to Wigan to play as a ball playing 13. It seems Leeds didn't quiet know what to do with him after playing him in multiple positions.

Re: The Loose Forward : Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:28 pm  

Last Son of Wigan wrote:

I have to say even though there's still so much left in this season (potentially a trip to the GF) I can't help but already be excited for 2020, the calibre of player and how they play really does seem promising.

And yes, French as a 6 playing off Hastings as a creator and first receiver controlling the flow of play both left and right of the ruck would be something to see.

For sure. As you say, given we've still so much to play for, it seems a bit strange to be looking forward to next season so much. I can't say we've had that anticipation regarding signings for a while. Probably the Melbourne trio was the last time we could see a significant improvement in personnel going into a new season.

Theoretically we're better off in the forwards, halves and, provided Manfredi can return at or near his best again, in the backs than we have been this season. Quite an upgrade and not one that any team gets to see very often. Credit where it's due to IL and KR. They've taken some stick regarding recruitment over recent years but they've pulled out all the stops this time around.

Anyway, I'm sure we'll be discussing this more over coming months. For now we've got another title to win!