FORUMS FORUMS






RLFANS.COM
Celebrating
25 years service to
the Rugby League
Community!

   WWW.RLFANS.COM • View topic - Lam to stay on in 2020
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Board Member11373
JoinedServiceReputation
Sep 26 200222 years157th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
28th Mar 24 15:0825th Mar 24 10:36LINK
Milestone Posts
10000
15000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Much too far South

Re: Lam to stay on in 2020 : Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:48 pm  
Well clearly that was the thrust given the Campbell reference, but interested to understand the issue with the numbers you quoted and your view?
post 
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Player Coach5193No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Jan 23 200618 years259th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
28th Mar 24 19:2928th Mar 24 11:17LINK
Milestone Posts
5000
10000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Signature
Current thoughts - Mago out or get running up them plantations, get fit or get rid.
Maybe a back up halfback, someone with a bit of experience on a short term deal.
Big tall strong running second rower, like a McMeekin or Sironen type back rower.

Re: Lam to stay on in 2020 : Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:05 pm  
FearTheVee wrote:
Well clearly that was the thrust given the Campbell reference, but interested to understand the issue with the numbers you quoted and your view?


I was paraphrasing you, don’t act silly.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Board Member11373
JoinedServiceReputation
Sep 26 200222 years157th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
28th Mar 24 15:0825th Mar 24 10:36LINK
Milestone Posts
10000
15000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Much too far South

Re: Lam to stay on in 2020 : Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:02 pm  
FearTheVee wrote:
Classic RG spin :)

Here's another way of looking at it chap:
- The losses you quote for Saints include big depreciation charges (approx £500k p.a.) for a stadium that has been fully paid for whilst the club remains debt free;
- Early teething problems at the stadium (hospitality/catering etc subsequently taken in house, cladding-gate etc) led to chunky losses in early years, but after adjusting for depreciation, Saints made an opeprating profit in both 2015 and 2016 - we didn't make a final in either year. Wigan lost about £650k by the same measure in 2016 alone despite winning SL
- 2017 was a difficult one and a loss of c.£0.7m was made as lots of changes made and costs incurred (KC and some associated staff leaving mid-contract, connection lost between club and town) HOWEVER McManus has advised he expects us to be back in profit for 2018 without a final appearance. We will know soon enough as the accounts are due shortly. In 2017 Wigan lost £450k-ish despite winning the WCC and making (and profitably losing) the Challenge Cup Final.
- After recent conversion of shareholder loans to equity, Saints have a positive net asset position of £22m and no debt. Wigan are balance sheet insolvent with minimal assets, owe c.£1m to the Bank and c.£6m to Lenagan - hopefully neither of them ever need the money back.

I know you long banged the "it's better to rent than have assets" drum with respect to Saints, but let's have a bit of balance eh.


Saints just announced that the 2018 accounts show us back in profit (before depreciation) as McManus trailed. Hopefully the Wigan numbers improve materially too; accounts due next month.

The game needs all of our big clubs in rude health, here's hoping Wigan can stem the losses.

Next TV deal is a huge moment for the sport.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Star1977
JoinedServiceReputation
Dec 15 201013 years299th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
7th Mar 24 13:1819th Oct 22 14:23LINK
Milestone Posts
1000
2500
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530

Re: Lam to stay on in 2020 : Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:44 am  
FearTheVee wrote:
Well clearly that was the thrust given the Campbell reference, but interested to understand the issue with the numbers you quoted and your view?


Strugging to see how you cant see what he is alluding to. Despite it being a higher figure, 650k written as that looks a larger figure than £0.7m as written
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Chairman32308
JoinedServiceReputation
Oct 17 200221 years150th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
28th Mar 24 12:5516th Mar 24 11:31LINK
Milestone Posts
30000
40000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Signature
SAINTS THE ORIGINAL AND PERENNIAL CHEATS

For sale full Saints kit (circa 1989). Shirts in pristine condition, but shorts badly soiled.

For 27 - 0 you get a trophy
For 75 - 0 you get sod all.

Wigan had eight in a row
Saints have five in a row

Re: Lam to stay on in 2020 : Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:58 am  
FearTheVee wrote:
Saints just announced that the 2018 accounts show us back in profit (before depreciation) as McManus trailed. Hopefully the Wigan numbers improve materially too; accounts due next month.

The game needs all of our big clubs in rude health, here's hoping Wigan can stem the losses.

Next TV deal is a huge moment for the sport.


I wonder who posted this a couple of years ago.

"Bit misleading to tag EBITDA as profit but an improvement nonetheless."

http://forums.redvee.net/showthread.php ... it-in-2016
FearTheVee wrote:
Saints just announced that the 2018 accounts show us back in profit (before depreciation) as McManus trailed. Hopefully the Wigan numbers improve materially too; accounts due next month.

The game needs all of our big clubs in rude health, here's hoping Wigan can stem the losses.

Next TV deal is a huge moment for the sport.


I wonder who posted this a couple of years ago.

"Bit misleading to tag EBITDA as profit but an improvement nonetheless."

http://forums.redvee.net/showthread.php ... it-in-2016
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Board Member11373
JoinedServiceReputation
Sep 26 200222 years157th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
28th Mar 24 15:0825th Mar 24 10:36LINK
Milestone Posts
10000
15000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Much too far South

Re: Lam to stay on in 2020 : Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:46 am  
thepimp007 wrote:
Strugging to see how you cant see what he is alluding to. Despite it being a higher figure, 650k written as that looks a larger figure than £0.7m as written


Only if you have no grasp of numbers at all.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Board Member11373
JoinedServiceReputation
Sep 26 200222 years157th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
28th Mar 24 15:0825th Mar 24 10:36LINK
Milestone Posts
10000
15000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Much too far South

Re: Lam to stay on in 2020 : Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:48 am  
Rogues Gallery wrote:
I wonder who posted this a couple of years ago.

"Bit misleading to tag EBITDA as profit but an improvement nonetheless."

http://forums.redvee.net/showthread.php ... it-in-2016


It is misleading. EBITDA and profit are two different things of course.

But then saints have no interest to pay as we are debt free, and no tax to pay as the depreciation on the fully paid for stadium acts as a hefty tax shield against modest operating profits. So it’s the correct metric to measure.

When I posted the above we had a very different balance sheet, with big interest charges on loan accounts. Now we don’t as all the connected party debt has been converted to equity, but then you knew that.
Rogues Gallery wrote:
I wonder who posted this a couple of years ago.

"Bit misleading to tag EBITDA as profit but an improvement nonetheless."

http://forums.redvee.net/showthread.php ... it-in-2016


It is misleading. EBITDA and profit are two different things of course.

But then saints have no interest to pay as we are debt free, and no tax to pay as the depreciation on the fully paid for stadium acts as a hefty tax shield against modest operating profits. So it’s the correct metric to measure.

When I posted the above we had a very different balance sheet, with big interest charges on loan accounts. Now we don’t as all the connected party debt has been converted to equity, but then you knew that.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Chairman32308
JoinedServiceReputation
Oct 17 200221 years150th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
28th Mar 24 12:5516th Mar 24 11:31LINK
Milestone Posts
30000
40000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Signature
SAINTS THE ORIGINAL AND PERENNIAL CHEATS

For sale full Saints kit (circa 1989). Shirts in pristine condition, but shorts badly soiled.

For 27 - 0 you get a trophy
For 75 - 0 you get sod all.

Wigan had eight in a row
Saints have five in a row

Re: Lam to stay on in 2020 : Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:40 am  
FearTheVee wrote:
It is misleading. EBITDA and profit are two different things of course.

But then saints have no interest to pay as we are debt free, and no tax to pay as the depreciation on the fully paid for stadium acts as a hefty tax shield against modest operating profits. So it’s the correct metric to measure.

When I posted the above we had a very different balance sheet, with big interest charges on loan accounts. Now we don’t as all the connected party debt has been converted to equity, but then you knew that.


So your actual loss was around £650K last year, which was a big improvement but still a big loss. If McManus says it's drizzle I would get my big brolly and wellies :D

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/docu ... 0845ddf3da
FearTheVee wrote:
It is misleading. EBITDA and profit are two different things of course.

But then saints have no interest to pay as we are debt free, and no tax to pay as the depreciation on the fully paid for stadium acts as a hefty tax shield against modest operating profits. So it’s the correct metric to measure.

When I posted the above we had a very different balance sheet, with big interest charges on loan accounts. Now we don’t as all the connected party debt has been converted to equity, but then you knew that.


So your actual loss was around £650K last year, which was a big improvement but still a big loss. If McManus says it's drizzle I would get my big brolly and wellies :D

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/docu ... 0845ddf3da
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Board Member11373
JoinedServiceReputation
Sep 26 200222 years157th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
28th Mar 24 15:0825th Mar 24 10:36LINK
Milestone Posts
10000
15000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Much too far South

Re: Lam to stay on in 2020 : Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:16 pm  
Rogues Gallery wrote:
So your actual loss was around £650K last year, which was a big improvement but still a big loss. If McManus says it's drizzle I would get my big brolly and wellies :D


I think you're delibertaely misunderstanding the numbers so I'll leave it with a couple of points of clarification then you can interpret how you like.

You've taken a number (£650k loss) that is stated after a £250k interest charge that relates to connected party balances which have since been converted to shares. It is completely meaningless whe looking at the underlying operating profit - the charge won't exist next year.

Your number also is stated after non-cash depreciation charges of c.£450k. We could depreciate the (fully owned and paid for) stadium by £10m if we wanted to and show a £10m loss for you to get excited about, ut in reality it wouldn't make any difference at all to the underlying trading performance and cash generation of the Saints.

It's a big improvement on last year and I expect we'll see further improvement for the year to October 2019.

But the Wigan accounts will be out soon so you'll be able to try to find your angle that says they are far rosier and continue your line that owning a stadium is a mugs game.
RankPostsTeam
Player Coach3787No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Mar 10 200519 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
19th Jul 20 09:449th Mar 20 15:24LINK
Milestone Posts
2500
5000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530

Re: Lam to stay on in 2020 : Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:49 am  
No mate. Reading your boring drivel is the real mugs game. Who cares about the benefits of owning v renting? As long as a club remains viable - whether that is due to the generosity of its owner or otherwise - that’ll do me. For you, I’m sure years of winning bugger all have been cushioned by the fact that someone - not you though - owns your stadium. Big deal.
PreviousNext

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 313 guests

REPLY

Subject: 
Message:
   
Please note using apple style emoji's can result in posting failures.
Use the FULL EDITOR to better format content or upload images, be notified of replies etc...

Return to Wigan Warriors


RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
31m
Game - Song Titles
Wanderer
34291
32m
BORED The Band Name Game
Wanderer
56012
Recent
Smith - should he stay or should he go
weaver93
359
Recent
TV games not Wire
rubber ducki
2864
Recent
The Good Friday Derby Massacre
Tarquin Fueg
139
Recent
Ky Rodwell
Spookisback
109
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
1m
The official Leon Hayes Thread
Smiffy27
18
1m
BORED The Band Name Game
Wanderer
56012
1m
ALL NEW 49ERS ERA LEEDS UTD THREAD
tad rhino
1386
2m
Smith - should he stay or should he go
weaver93
359
2m
Fevround 2
Trojan Horse
91
3m
Spare Tickets Friday
post
4
3m
Stats article
Sir Gregory
5
3m
Other Championship Clubs
FOREVERTRIN
98
4m
Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE
RobRiches
1934
4m
2024 Southstandercom Prediction Competition Week 6
rhinosTY
36
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
Another Tigers Defeat As Rhinos Go Level Top
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
York - 14th April
Spookisback
10
TODAY
Stats article
Sir Gregory
5
TODAY
21 man Squads - Devils v Leopards
Cokey
4
TODAY
Squad for Catalan
Smiffy27
17
TODAY
The Wigan Way - New Podcast - Chairman Special
Jukesays
1
TODAY
Dons v Swinton Lions 30 June 2024
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Squad for Sheffield
AdamH
1
TODAY
London Away
Fartown58
1
TODAY
The Bulls away
terry silver
9
TODAY
The official Leon Hayes Thread
Smiffy27
18
TODAY
Saints a
WWste
23
TODAY
Leon Ruan signs on loan
Jemmo
2
TODAY
Wardle
Jo Jumbuck
3
TODAY
Huddersfield - Home
Fartown58
6
TODAY
Max Wood on loan to Bradford 2 weeks
rubber ducki
7
TODAY
Jake Wardle 5 Year deal
Zig
22
TODAY
No grade A for 2025 for Trinity
PopTart
27
TODAY
Cup Quarter Final TV Arrangements
RLFANS News
1
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
Another Tigers Defeat As Rhino..
134
Cup Quarter Final TV Arrangeme..
554
2024 Challenge Cup Quarter Fin..
679
Easy Does It For The Dragons A..
588
Warrington Demolish London For..
691
Leigh Leopards Beat Plucky Fea..
742
Saints Triumph Over Disappoint..
723
Easy Win for the Wolves Over L..
960
Dragons Condemn Castleford To ..
928
Leigh Leopards Secure First Po..
1075
St Helens Tame The Rhinos To W..
1047
Wigan Warriors Come From Behin..
1113
Betfred Championship and Leagu..
1086
2024 Challenge Cup Sixth Round..
3870
Featherstone Win Extra Time Cu..
1205
POSTSONLINEREGISTRATIONSRECORD
19.57M 2,620 80,00114,103
LOGIN HERE
or REGISTER for more features!.

When you register you get access to the live match scores, live match chat and you can post in the discussions on the forums.
RLFANS Match Centre
 TODAY
National Rugby League 2024-R4
05:05
Souths
v
Canterbury
09:05
Brisbane
v
NQL Cowboys
Mens Super League XXVIII-R6
12:30
Hull KR
v
Hull FC
Championship 2024-R2
14:00
Widnes
v
Swinton
Mens Super League XXVIII-R6
15:00
St.Helens
v
Wigan
Championship 2024-R2
15:00
Whitehaven
v
Barrow
17:00
Dewsbury
v
Batley
18:00
Featherstone
v
Wakefield
League One 2024-R2
19:30
Hunslet
v
Keighley
Championship 2024-R2
19:30
Bradford
v
Halifax
19:30
Doncaster
v
Sheffield
 Thu 4th Apr
Mens Super League XXVIII-R7
20:00
Leigh
v
Wigan
 Sun 14th Apr
Challenge Cup 2024-R7
15:00
Castleford
v
Wigan
 Fri 19th Apr
Mens Super League XXVIII-R8
20:00
Wigan
v
Castleford
 Fri 26th Apr
Mens Super League XXVIII-R9
20:00
Hull KR
v
Wigan
 Sat 17th Aug 2024
Mens Super League XXVIII-R22
15:30
Wigan
v
St.Helens
ALL SCORES PROVIDED BY RLFANS.COM (SETTINGS)
Matches on TV
Fri 29th Mar
SL
12:30
Hull KR-Hull FC
SL
15:00
St.Helens-Wigan
Sat 30th Mar
SL
15:00
Warrington-Catalans
SL
17:30
Salford-Leigh
Sun 31st Mar
SL
15:00
LondonB-Huddersfield
L1
15:00
Oldham-Rochdale
Thu 4th Apr
SL
20:00
Leigh-Wigan
Fri 5th Apr
SL
20:00
Castleford-Salford
SL
20:00
Hull KR-LondonB
SL
20:00
Leeds-Warrington
Sat 6th Apr
SL
15:00
Hull FC-Huddersfield
SL
17:30
Catalans-St.Helens
Sat 13th Apr
CC2024
17:00
Hull KR-Leigh
Sun 14th Apr
CC2024
16:30
St.Helens-Warrington
Fri 19th Apr
SL
20:00
Leeds-Huddersfield
SL
20:00
St.Helens-Hull FC
SL
20:00
Wigan-Castleford
Sat 20th Apr
SL
15:00
Warrington-Leigh
SL
17:30
Catalans-Hull KR
Sun 21st Apr
SL
15:00
LondonB-Salford
Thu 28th Mar
SL 6 Castleford6-26Leeds
NRL 4 Sydney16-22Penrith
Sun 24th Mar
CC2024 6 Halifax4-40Catalans
NRL 3 Parramatta28-24Manly
NRL 3 Newcastle14-12Melbourne
L1 1 Cornwall16-40Crusaders
L1 1 Keighley58-16Workington
L1 1 Midlands70-16Newcastle
L1 1 Rochdale24-26Hunslet
WOMCC2024 2 FeatherstoneW38-6Shef W
WOMCC2024 2 BarrowW18-20WiganW
WOMCC2024 2 LonB W6-24Wire W
WOMCC2024 2 HKR Wom0-90LeedsW
WOMCC2024 2 Lei L W6-36Hudds W
Sat 23rd Mar
CC2024 6 Batley14-28Castleford
CC2024 6 Huddersfield50-6Hull FC
CC2024 6 Leigh26-14Featherstone
CC2024 6 Warrington42-0LondonB
NRL 3 Canterbury32-0Gold Coast
NRL 3 St.George24-46NQL Cowboys
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Warrington 5 156 58 98 8
Wigan 4 144 54 90 8
St.Helens 5 118 40 78 8
Catalans 5 126 54 72 8
Leeds 6 108 88 20 8
Hull KR 5 98 63 35 6
 
Salford 5 95 96 -1 6
Huddersfield 5 94 98 -4 4
Leigh 4 82 54 28 2
Hull FC 5 54 162 -108 2
Castleford 6 62 204 -142 0
LondonB 5 54 220 -166 0
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Widnes 1 44 8 36 2
Wakefield 1 42 12 30 2
Doncaster 1 36 20 16 2
Halifax 1 24 10 14 2
Featherstone 1 24 20 4 2
Sheffield 1 24 22 2 2
 
Whitehaven 1 18 16 2 2
Toulouse 1 22 24 -2 0
Swinton 1 16 18 -2 0
Batley 1 20 24 -4 0
Dewsbury 1 10 24 -14 0
York 1 20 36 -16 0
Bradford 1 12 42 -30 0
Barrow 1 8 44 -36 0
RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
31m
Game - Song Titles
Wanderer
34291
32m
BORED The Band Name Game
Wanderer
56012
Recent
Smith - should he stay or should he go
weaver93
359
Recent
TV games not Wire
rubber ducki
2864
Recent
The Good Friday Derby Massacre
Tarquin Fueg
139
Recent
Ky Rodwell
Spookisback
109
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
1m
The official Leon Hayes Thread
Smiffy27
18
1m
BORED The Band Name Game
Wanderer
56012
1m
ALL NEW 49ERS ERA LEEDS UTD THREAD
tad rhino
1386
2m
Smith - should he stay or should he go
weaver93
359
2m
Fevround 2
Trojan Horse
91
3m
Spare Tickets Friday
post
4
3m
Stats article
Sir Gregory
5
3m
Other Championship Clubs
FOREVERTRIN
98
4m
Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE
RobRiches
1934
4m
2024 Southstandercom Prediction Competition Week 6
rhinosTY
36
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
Another Tigers Defeat As Rhinos Go Level Top
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
York - 14th April
Spookisback
10
TODAY
Stats article
Sir Gregory
5
TODAY
21 man Squads - Devils v Leopards
Cokey
4
TODAY
Squad for Catalan
Smiffy27
17
TODAY
The Wigan Way - New Podcast - Chairman Special
Jukesays
1
TODAY
Dons v Swinton Lions 30 June 2024
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Squad for Sheffield
AdamH
1
TODAY
London Away
Fartown58
1
TODAY
The Bulls away
terry silver
9
TODAY
The official Leon Hayes Thread
Smiffy27
18
TODAY
Saints a
WWste
23
TODAY
Leon Ruan signs on loan
Jemmo
2
TODAY
Wardle
Jo Jumbuck
3
TODAY
Huddersfield - Home
Fartown58
6
TODAY
Max Wood on loan to Bradford 2 weeks
rubber ducki
7
TODAY
Jake Wardle 5 Year deal
Zig
22
TODAY
No grade A for 2025 for Trinity
PopTart
27
TODAY
Cup Quarter Final TV Arrangements
RLFANS News
1
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
Another Tigers Defeat As Rhino..
134
Cup Quarter Final TV Arrangeme..
554
2024 Challenge Cup Quarter Fin..
679
Easy Does It For The Dragons A..
588
Warrington Demolish London For..
691
Leigh Leopards Beat Plucky Fea..
742
Saints Triumph Over Disappoint..
723
Easy Win for the Wolves Over L..
960
Dragons Condemn Castleford To ..
928
Leigh Leopards Secure First Po..
1075
St Helens Tame The Rhinos To W..
1047
Wigan Warriors Come From Behin..
1113
Betfred Championship and Leagu..
1086
2024 Challenge Cup Sixth Round..
3870
Featherstone Win Extra Time Cu..
1205


Visit the RLFANS.COM SHOP
for more merchandise!