Re: P7 W0 D0 L7 : Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:09 pm  

Levrier wrote:

I would like to get in early with " It was all the refs fault" but it wasn't so I cannot.

No need to stoop to Hull fans' level.

Re: P7 W0 D0 L7 : Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:20 am  

I said at the match that Lockers should have been the man of the match as he had more influence on that game by not playing than any of those that took the field. It seems that 17 pro players are unable to do even the basics without him there to guide them through the game. A frightening thought.

Re: P7 W0 D0 L7 : Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:48 am  

To me, this illustrates the frightening degree of mental weakness in the current Wigan team - which has got to be down to the the way they're trained and prepped for matches, plus an amazing lack of leadership ability among the senior players.

Yesterday ought to have been the final nail in the coffin for a number of people at Wigan. It's been a poor season all round, but the excuses about injuries etc no longer apply. We are simply not as good as we've been deluding ourselves into thinking we are. You can't dismiss the number of Cup finals Wigan have reached in recent years, but maybe that's down to the very average standards that we've seen in this competition generally. Yesterday, I felt we finally came up against a genuinely well organised, well-marshalled, well-coached team - a team who've moved the British game forward the way Wigan did in the late 80s - and we were comprehensively beaten, left behind with the uninspired stragglers.

I know it's not a simple thing to replace a coach. It's only worth doing if you can get someone better - and there is still no-one else in the UK who I think is significantly better than Shaun Wane, with the obvious exception of Daryl Powell (though I imagine he's now got a job for life at Cas). This means we have to go to Aus, and that won't be something that can be pulled off overnight.

In the mean time, there is a lot of dead wood in the Wigan side which we need to unload at the first opportunity, starting with: Joe Burgess, Tommy Leuluai, Michael McIlorum, Frank-Paul Nu'uausala and Joel Tomkins.

On top of that, players who I'd put on a kind of performance-related probation include: Sam Tomkins, George Williams, Anthony Gelling, Taulima Tautai, Tony Clubb and Sam Powell.

I'm afraid the Wigan class of 2017 really is that bad.

Re: P7 W0 D0 L7 : Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:01 am  

Hard to disagree with that Cruncher. And it speaks volumes about the game in the UK that this average team which is poorly coached can win the next 3 games and become champions???

We were so badly under-prepared yesterday. The writing was on the wall from the first set when Cas easily broke our line and went 80 metres. Is that the players fault though? Wane blamed a lot of "individuals" having poor games which is probably true but if most of the team had a poor game then you have to look towards the preparation and coaching?

Re: P7 W0 D0 L7 : Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:53 am  

Wigg'n wrote:

Hard to disagree with that Cruncher. And it speaks volumes about the game in the UK that this average team which is poorly coached can win the next 3 games and become champions???

We were so badly under-prepared yesterday. The writing was on the wall from the first set when Cas easily broke our line and went 80 metres. Is that the players fault though? Wane blamed a lot of "individuals" having poor games which is probably true but if most of the team had a poor game then you have to look towards the preparation and coaching?

I totally agree. But as I've said, replacing the coaching staff is something that can't happen as a kneejerk (and I doubt it will - the protracted but careful selection and appointment of Michael Maguire being a good example).

In terms of the players, the only ones who stood up and were counted yesterday were Tom Davis and John Bateman (as usual). Tommy L had a bit of a dig, but one good effort in a whole season is not enough - the guy's clearly finished.

There are even some who are NOT on my list of shame who I have reservations about. I fear that Oli Gildart is too small to play centre in the modern game, while for a 22-year-old, Ryan Sutton looks out of shape to me. I'm even worried about Faz's lack of stature, though that's only being exposed because we have a powder-puff front row.

I would also impose a moratorium on bringing back players who've left. I agree that this seemed like a good idea at the time, and a sensible appreciation of the new situation in the game (wherein British RL with its self-imposed restriction on spending power is bottom of the rugby world pecking-order), but it's mainly turned out to be a safety net for mercenaries. Players are basically saying that they want to go and have an adventure somewhere else (some quite ridiculously - Budgie, Joel and Josh spring to mind!) - but don't worry, they'll come back to Wigan if it all goes pear-shaped for them. Well, that's not good enough ... and on reflection, it's maybe no surprise that we keep getting our fingers burned by it. Even those who go to to Aus, who you'd expect to have improved, come back worse players - it's got to be a mindset thing; they're just not that bothered about playing for Wigan.

I know that extricating all these losers from the team sounds draconian, but I sincerely believe that yesterday spoke volumes about how we've been on the slide recently. 2017 has been an almost unrelieved tale of error-strewn performances, lack of organisation on the field and non-existent commitment from a bunch of men who get very well paid to wear a shirt that others would have put on simply for the honour of it. Hopefully, the club will now decide that enough is enough, and will view yesterday as a new low-watermark for the club. It really is time for action ... some of it pretty radical.

Re: P7 W0 D0 L7 : Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:14 am  

I agree with the majority of your points, Cruncher. The one I'd like to highlight is the mental strength (or rather lack thereof). It's bothered me for some time that we no longer seem to have a sports psychologist on the books - or if we do we need urgently to replace them with someone better. The catastrophic lack of urgency, grit and ability to complete the basic skills well in certain games has led to some dire performances this season even, or possibly especially, when we have had more or less our first choice side available. Yet on some occasions (e.g. the Saints game) that same side has looked really good. They have it in them, and presumably the coaching style doesn't vary dramatically from game to game. Yes, there's the quality of the opposition but Saints are no pushovers now that Holbrook has turned them around. Changes in personnel are needed. and we do need fresh ideas from the coaching side: but I think we also need input from someone who can help the players find that mental steel as well. Yesterday was another "special occasion" game, the club worked hard to get more fans in and, as on similar occasions throughout the season, the players didn't turn up mentally. Frankly, I can't wait for this season to end - and I felt the same last year, though the Grand Final win put a gloss on 2016. I can't see that happening this year.

Re: P7 W0 D0 L7 : Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:37 am  

Arnold Whycliffe wrote:

I agree with the majority of your points, Cruncher. The one I'd like to highlight is the mental strength (or rather lack thereof). It's bothered me for some time that we no longer seem to have a sports psychologist on the books - or if we do we need urgently to replace them with someone better. The catastrophic lack of urgency, grit and ability to complete the basic skills well in certain games has led to some dire performances this season even, or possibly especially, when we have had more or less our first choice side available. Yet on some occasions (e.g. the Saints game) that same side has looked really good. They have it in them, and presumably the coaching style doesn't vary dramatically from game to game. Yes, there's the quality of the opposition but Saints are no pushovers now that Holbrook has turned them around. Changes in personnel are needed. and we do need fresh ideas from the coaching side: but I think we also need input from someone who can help the players find that mental steel as well. Yesterday was another "special occasion" game, the club worked hard to get more fans in and, as on similar occasions throughout the season, the players didn't turn up mentally. Frankly, I can't wait for this season to end - and I felt the same last year, though the Grand Final win put a gloss on 2016. I can't see that happening this year.

No arguments with any of this.

To be honest, I think it would be absurd if Wigan got to Old Trafford this year. It's astonishing they've got this close, but if they did, it would only paper over the cracks that have been glaringly obvious for most of the rest of the season. Plus ... how would we feel about seeing Wigan v Castleford in front of 70,000 people, with millions more watching on TV, in a game that Cas really NEEDED to win? Yesterday, they did us at a canter, with nothing really to play for and their best players absent. The mind boggles at what kind of beating we'd take in the final.

The season's over as far as I'm concerned. The time to start rebuilding for next year starts now.

Re: P7 W0 D0 L7 : Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:41 am  

You can't really rebuild when players have contracts...we are in a tough spot to be fair. Our lack of movements whilst other clubs are building for the future shows how financially tied up we truly are. We are the only club with TWO marquee players for goodness sake, that is laughable. Neither Williams nor Tomkins are producing half of what Gale, Sneyd, Parcell, Houghton are for their respective clubs (and none of those are MARQUEE). I have no proof but I believe we missed out on Sutcliffe because we simply couldn't negotiate, meaning players we have on the books probably aren't willing to move on!

For me the big earners that don't produce (Gelling, Joel T, FPN, Tautai, Tommy L and Micky Mc) need moving along...

I've said pretty much since my first post Gelling needs to go, he is way more of a liabilty than a luxury. A solid, defensive minded #3 is what we need.
I genuinely have no clue whats happened or is happening to Joel Tomkins...wether a full pre-season will help, I guess only time will tell. But the shear volume of his salary could be utiliised elsewhere for sure.
FPN & Tautai are in the same boat, zero impact and mistakes galore, typical Shaun Wane style players IMO. Out played, out worked and out enthused by there opposite numbers 95% of the games played.
Tommy L...he's not a 7, he hasn't improved us at all since Matty Smith left. This is where the bulk of any salary cap needs placing!!!!
Micky Mc...can't fault his enthusiasm and desire but his stats for this season in the games he's played are way of the pace..added to the fact he can't play a full 80...Parcell, Houghton, Daryl Clark, James Roby and even Randell (Wakey) are head & shoulders above him.

However, I genuinely believe Shaun Wane will have sat down with IL and told him, had we not had the "injury crisis" we would already have the top-4 squared away! Leaving it down to KO rugby for the Semi. For our chairman that is probably good enough when you consider we are World Champions and CC Finalists. I guarantee there are zero crisis or even worrying conversations being had at Wigan RL HQ. Therefore, I wouldn't get excited about any rebuilding. We will have the same management, same squad and same game plan next year. After Saints beat Salford and either Hull beat Castleford or Wakefield beat us, I for one will be pleased the season is finally over* but won't be expecting any announcements.

* I say this because I would be scared to actually have to visit the Jungle and play Castleford in a semi-final game they actually need to win!

Re: P7 W0 D0 L7 : Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:46 am  

It has to come from the top down and for me I think it is time we overhauled the entire coaching set up. Wane has probably earned the right to another season to put things right even though personally I think it would be better if he stood down.

For Wane to remain in place however we would need to change the rest of the coaching team.

Jobs for the boys mentality has crept back in, our conditioning which was once the envy of other teams has now been surpassed by most of the other teams, both fitness and our susceptibility to injury.

A real assistant with new ideas needs to come in prefereably from the NRL.

I could go on and on but to be honest I share the same lethargy at the moment as the players seem to share.

Season ticket sales next year will be very interesting.

Re: P7 W0 D0 L7 : Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:04 am  

Season ticket sales next year will be very interesting.

[/quote]

Season ticket sales will be abysmal