Re: Serious issues..... : Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:29 pm  

Sorry mate, the LLS counts as nothing. We were told that constantly whenever we've won it.

Re: Serious issues..... : Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:55 pm  

Wires71 wrote:

Why are many problems to be expected?

Ratchford, Brown and Atkins injured; King playing at centre and is not a natural centre for me; Patton isn’t good enough and just filling a gap until Widdop comes; Currie still not back to his best; too much expected of Hill and Cooper, neither are particularly brilliant anymore and their interchanges/replacements aren’t good enough; Burrell not intergrated into the squad; a lot of deadwood in the squad: Westwood Tasi Akouala Murdoch-Masila JClark; not enough good young players coming through who can freshen the team week-to-week when others are rested/injured...

Re: Serious issues..... : Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:56 pm  

It’s most certainly a treble!

Re: Serious issues..... : Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:57 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

The recruitment is not going to be just down to the head coach, and the fact this has been a problem which has stemmed from before Price's time suggests the problem lies elsewhere, and won't be solved with the new coach.

Our recruitment has gone downhill since about 2013. I accept that it has been a tough market, and not one in which the likes of King, Monaghan, Morley, Hodgson were available. But if you compare our recruitment in the latter years of TS, 2013-2017, to Castleford's over that same period when they went from bottom of the league to top, while having to deal with the loss of their best players, Chase, Clark and Solomona, it shows that good squad building was possible. And since then, you could compare ours to Saints.

Spot on!

Re: Serious issues..... : Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:15 pm  

Psychedelic Casual wrote:

Ratchford, Brown and Atkins injured; King playing at centre and is not a natural centre for me; Patton isn’t good enough and just filling a gap until Widdop comes; Currie still not back to his best; too much expected of Hill and Cooper, neither are particularly brilliant anymore and their interchanges/replacements aren’t good enough; Burrell not intergrated into the squad; a lot of deadwood in the squad: Westwood Tasi Akouala Murdoch-Masila JClark; not enough good young players coming through who can freshen the team week-to-week when others are rested/injured...

But you said "We have many problems but that’s to be expected. We have many many areas we need to improve and that’s not just the coach, the players also need to pull their fingers out."

A lot is down to Price.

Brown was injured before the season kicked off. HB is clearly a problem and Price has not addressed it.
King is selected by Price at centre, and has had his contract extended by Price.
Price keeps selecting Currie.
Interchanges for Hill and Cooper - Sita was an inherited problem, Tasi was a Price signing.
J Clark signed by Price.
Decent young players loaned to Hull KR by Price.

I'm just wondering how many of our problems are of our own making....

Re: Serious issues..... : Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:28 pm  

Wires71 wrote:

But you said "We have many problems but that’s to be expected. We have many many areas we need to improve and that’s not just the coach, the players also need to pull their fingers out."

A lot is down to Price.

Brown was injured before the season kicked off. HB is clearly a problem and Price has not addressed it.
King is selected by Price at centre, and has had his contract extended by Price.
Price keeps selecting Currie.
Interchanges for Hill and Cooper - Sita was an inherited problem, Tasi was a Price signing.
J Clark signed by Price.
Decent young players loaned to Hull KR by Price.

I'm just wondering how many of our problems are of our own making....

I agree with you but again come back to the issue of attributing responsibility for recruitment. I don't think it will be just Price, so I don't think the distinction of who was signed under TS and who was signed under Price is the real comparison.

For me, Price's accountability is for the way he gets the team organised, the style of rugby they play and how effective they are. Last year I was very impressed with Price, so I'm not going to write him off too quickly even if I'm disappointed at the moment. But the issue of recruitment, talent identification and development has been a real problem for a while and there's responsiblity for that somewhere at the club.

I'm also starting to wonder about how well the club as a whole is managed these days. You know like you get Arsenal fans saying you can trace the decline in their club back to the point where David Dein left, I wonder if our watershed moment was when Andy Gatcliffe went. I know he was never seen as a visionary leader but if you look at where the club was when he took over (a disorganised shambles) there was a steady improvement from that point on to making the club a much more professional and effective unit on and off the pitch, and after he left in 2014 it's never felt to me like it is as well run. Karl Fitzpatrick seems like a good guy and when he's been on BBC radio he talks well and has good ideas about the game, but I don't feel like he had the experience to land a big job like this.

Re: Serious issues..... : Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:22 pm  

Of the first choice 13, how many Price signings get into it?

Goodwin (due to lack of alternative rather than form or class Atkins pushes him close), Charnley, Austin. Is that it?

Mamo, Burrell, Tasi, Sita, BMM, Clark, Davis & Walker are all squad fillers, despite the salaries suggesting otherwise for a few. Other than Davis I can’t see any genuine return for investment this season. Walker and Burrell could be considered projects for longer term. Mamo is no better than Johnson and the kid (Thewlis, I think) based on the single appearance, but I’d bet his salary is more than both put together. The other 3 are playing 10 minutes for 40 meters and 10 tackles a match. And I’ve said it before, but Solomona for a similar time on the field would at least chip in with an assist or create a bit of havoc. Clark, Sita and BMM are just abject disappointments (until BMM is within 3 yards of the line, then he turns from Jane to Tarzan pretty quickly)

Whatever the plan is, we’re approaching 2 years since his appointment, and it’s not showing signs of fruition. He’s using Smith’s players in a boring game plan, yet having spent more money.

I have a chip on my shoulder as I am a self confessed Smith-ite, but if Smith was giving the blank cheque (Austin, BMM, Charnley and Burrell don’t come cheap, nor did Roberts) I wonder if he could have got a better return, or even similar but in a more attractive style. Towards his latter days, his team lacked class and relied on scooting for Clark, Ratchford and Russell to make inroads for territory or breaks, but that could be Smith concluding that he only had to poor options. Brown being brought in last minute and not working out as planned ultimately killed Smith’s season/tenure. He didn’t pick Patton, sticking with Brown and got slated for it, and now fans are counting the days for Brown to come back despite being on one leg for 6 months. It’s a sorry state of affairs but maybe Smith was right.

I hope I’m wrong, and I hope that this is just a period of taking our foot of the gas knowing that Saints are cut adrift in the league, and we are in the playoffs and semis already. But it feels a lot like if we lose on Saturday, our season is spiralling out of control, desperately banking on coming good/getting lucky in September/October

Re: Serious issues..... : Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:38 pm  

“We have many problems but that’s to be expected.”

Indeed we do and most of them down to ourselves as well.

One of them the fact we’ve not added a half decent prop to take the load of Hill and Cooper. Even dating back to when we had Hill and Sims and when they were off the field, there was a big regression in our performances back then.

The fact that we, as a club, haven’t addressed this issue sufficiently, even after all these years, is bordering on negligent.

As I say, our own doing. But it can be expected, especially from this club of ours.

Re: Serious issues..... : Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:41 am  

IR80 wrote:

None so blind as them as refuse to see.

League Leaders - trophy
Challenge Cup - trophy
Grand Final - trophy

that is 3, a treble. ThNlk the stars ypu don't work as a darts commentator.

Treble Twenty
Treble Twenty
Treble Twenty

that is "60" only hit the twenty three times.....

Nope
Still can only see 2 cups /trophies there

Re: Serious issues..... : Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:50 am  

Barbed Wire wrote:

Of the first choice 13, how many Price signings get into it?

Goodwin (due to lack of alternative rather than form or class Atkins pushes him close), Charnley, Austin. Is that it?

Mamo, Burrell, Tasi, Sita, BMM, Clark, Davis & Walker are all squad fillers, despite the salaries suggesting otherwise for a few. Other than Davis I can’t see any genuine return for investment this season. Walker and Burrell could be considered projects for longer term. Mamo is no better than Johnson and the kid (Thewlis, I think) based on the single appearance, but I’d bet his salary is more than both put together. The other 3 are playing 10 minutes for 40 meters and 10 tackles a match. And I’ve said it before, but Solomona for a similar time on the field would at least chip in with an assist or create a bit of havoc. Clark, Sita and BMM are just abject disappointments (until BMM is within 3 yards of the line, then he turns from Jane to Tarzan pretty quickly)

Whatever the plan is, we’re approaching 2 years since his appointment, and it’s not showing signs of fruition. He’s using Smith’s players in a boring game plan, yet having spent more money.

I have a chip on my shoulder as I am a self confessed Smith-ite, but if Smith was giving the blank cheque (Austin, BMM, Charnley and Burrell don’t come cheap, nor did Roberts) I wonder if he could have got a better return, or even similar but in a more attractive style. Towards his latter days, his team lacked class and relied on scooting for Clark, Ratchford and Russell to make inroads for territory or breaks, but that could be Smith concluding that he only had to poor options. Brown being brought in last minute and not working out as planned ultimately killed Smith’s season/tenure. He didn’t pick Patton, sticking with Brown and got slated for it, and now fans are counting the days for Brown to come back despite being on one leg for 6 months. It’s a sorry state of affairs but maybe Smith was right.

I hope I’m wrong, and I hope that this is just a period of taking our foot of the gas knowing that Saints are cut adrift in the league, and we are in the playoffs and semis already. But it feels a lot like if we lose on Saturday, our season is spiralling out of control, desperately banking on coming good/getting lucky in September/October

Fare points.

Personally I think our first choice 17 which included Brown was good enough....however the short vision of pack sizeand depth is astounding!