Re: Most underrated players for Wire in the SL era : Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:18 pm  

Matt Davis, Jason Clark are players that are steady and never let you down. Waterhouse was well above that level. He probably was in 3rd/4th gear for us but he was very, very good. Louis was also very good, really good big game player as well.

Riley is probably the best call for underrated player, he played consistently at a very high standard.

Re: Most underrated players for Wire in the SL era : Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:45 pm  

lefty goldblatt wrote:

His brother (Vinnie) was another Waterhouse, for me. Never let us down, always put a shift in, but I was just expecting a little more je ne sais quoi from him, as he came with a big reputation.

Yeah when Vinnie first joined Saints, I remember watching his early performances and thinking he was a rare talent. He was big and powerful and had great hands. I thought they might have found another super star who would torment everyone else for years. So when we signed him, I was pleased, although he seemed to be more of a squad player for Saints rather than first choice.

I felt the same as you about Vinnie. He was OK but didn't live up to my hopes. Considering his physical talents, I was surprised he wasn't a difference maker more often.

I think this was a common factor with a lot of Cullen signings. He didn't sign a lot of total busts but he signed a lot of players who were OK without living up to what we had hoped when we signed them: Vinnie Anderson, Swann, Rauhihi, Reardon, Parker, Cardiss. Matt King and Michael Monaghan fit that category too during the time Cullen was still coach.

Re: Most underrated players for Wire in the SL era : Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:54 pm  

How about Darren Burns for an underrated player, maybe not from Wire fans but around the league in general.

Who do you think was better for us, Burns or Waterhouse?

Re: Most underrated players for Wire in the SL era : Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:47 am  

sally cinnamon wrote:

I wouldn't say he was underrated. He was a big name signing with a good reputation. In his first season he lived up to his reputation - part of a formidable right edge with Gleeson and Fa'afili like lefty says. Second season he faded away and when he left to go back to NZ I wasn't too disappointed.

I think its harder for blue chip signings to be underrated, unless they get an unwarranted amount of criticism (like Waterhouse).

Swann did have a good try scoring record for us, but overall in his two years he slightly underdelivered compared to what I was expecting.

Louis Anderson came with a similar background and reputation to Swann when he signed, but delivered a lot more overall.

Not wishing to devalue the contribution from Louis Anderson, but we'll never know how Swann would have performed had he been in a pack with Morley and Carvell as starting props, and Tony Smith as coach.
The circumstances of when Swann and Anderson played were very different.

Re: Most underrated players for Wire in the SL era : Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:14 am  

ratticusfinch wrote:

Matt Davis, Jason Clark are players that are steady and never let you down. Waterhouse was well above that level. He probably was in 3rd/4th gear for us but he was very, very good. Louis was also very good, really good big game player as well.

Riley is probably the best call for underrated player, he played consistently at a very high standard.

I don’t think J Clark was under rated last season, he was one of those overseas players that maybe are better able to be judged after 2 seasons, a bit like Matt King.

Re: Most underrated players for Wire in the SL era : Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:29 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

How about Darren Burns for an underrated player, maybe not from Wire fans but around the league in general.

Who do you think was better for us, Burns or Waterhouse?

Not saying who was the better player, but Burns stepped up when the chips were down and we stared into the abyss of relegation. Without Burns, we wouldn't have seen Waterhouse.

Re: Most underrated players for Wire in the SL era : Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:21 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

Riley for sure.

Usually fans have positive bias towards Warrington-born, Academy-produced talent and overhype the few that do come through. Riley never got much appreciation despite scoring a hundred odd tries, winning three Challenge Cups and holding down a place in our strongest team for decades. He never even got the hometown folk hero reputation that Mark Forster had. It felt like a lot of our fans didn't really think he was good enough and thought we could do better. You couldn't use the Fa'afili argument (he only got all those tries because of playing outside Gleeson) because most of the time he played outside Ryan Atkins, who everyone says never passed to his winger.

A few years before Riley emerged, we had Dean Gaskell, and it felt like the fans were always on his side, chanting 'Deano Deano' and willing him to make it, even though he never scored. Riley always scored tries but never had the same goodwill.

I wonder if some of it was because Kevin Penny emerged at a similar time, and most people would have preferred Penny because he was a more exciting prospect, but Riley won that selection battle as he was more consistent when Penny went through his flaky form. Possibly some fans thought that if we'd have persevered with Penny we'd have had a player with an extra yard of pace, and that Riley was like settling for the lesser option but I don't agree, Riley was better equipped to handle SL.

The other thing I really liked with Riley was he came back from being written off a couple of times. How often have we seen young players go through a bad spell of form, get dropped, sent out on loan and then their career disappears into the lower leagues. A narrative then often gets created around them that they were 'treated disgracefully' by whoever was coach at the time and they would have been a great if only we'd persevered with them. But that happened to Riley after we signed Joel Monaghan and he was sent off to Harlequins on loan, but he came back and won his place back in the team and was one of the top try scorers for the next couple of seasons. He also adapted to being moved from wing to fullback without fuss.

An excellent Wire winger

Thanks Sally - that's pretty much what I would have said, so you've saved me a lot of typing! Chris Riley, we salute you.

Re: Most underrated players for Wire in the SL era : Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:46 pm  

MorePlaymakersNeeded wrote:

Not wishing to devalue the contribution from Louis Anderson, but we'll never know how Swann would have performed had he been in a pack with Morley and Carvell as starting props, and Tony Smith as coach.
The circumstances of when Swann and Anderson played were very different.

If Swann had played in the peak TS team then he would have been a real handful running out wide on the right edge with King/Bridge and Hicks/Joel Monaghan. Swann was probably more of a threat to the opposition than Louis Anderson was.

The reason I put LA ahead of Swann is on consistency. He was good in his first season 2008, when the team wasn't (Cullen's final season/Lowes took over) and our two big signings Michael Monaghan and Matt King struggled that season. With LA we got a consistent level regardless of how the rest of the team was playing. Swann was hot when the team was in form and then in his second season when the team struggled, he faded away too. You could say the same about that whole famous right edge of Swann, Gleeson and Fa'afili. In 2006 they were way down off where they'd been in 2005.

I don't think Swann was a bad player or a signing bust, I just wouldn't have categorised him as underrated. He was like Simon Gillies. Gillies was only here for one season, but we had a good run of form where Gillies was great, scoring tries, had Toa running off him. Then the final month or so of the season we were garbage and he disappeared. Swann was like that but over 2 seasons.

Louis Anderson was more like Darren Burns, you knew that when things were falling apart around him, he was still going to deliver. Ben Westwood, Paul Wood, Simon Grix all fit that category too. It was noticeable when TS took over, which players from the Cullen era he stuck with long term.

Re: Most underrated players for Wire in the SL era : Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:05 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

Louis Anderson was more like Darren Burns, you knew that when things were falling apart around him, he was still going to deliver. Ben Westwood, Paul Wood, Simon Grix all fit that category too. It was noticeable when TS took over, which players from the Cullen era he stuck with long term.

Bang on Sally. I was gutted when louis Anderson left us and would have been happy to see him return at absolutely any point between him leaving and his retirement. Him and Westwood in the second row could handle absolutely anything that was thrown at them! Possibly the toughest 2nd row in wire history, certainly in my time. Grix was my favourite player for a while, he had everything a real shame he was cut down in his prime the try he scored when he dummied a kick over the top was genius, absolutely spot on with his decision making. Wood was overshadowed at the time by carvel and morley but I'd absolutely love Paul Wood coming off the bench at interchange now.

Re: Most underrated players for Wire in the SL era : Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:51 am  

Moe syslak wrote:

I can't believe anyone didn't rate warehouse when he was playing for us. The bloke was immense! I still cringe thinking about that thread on here where the majority of fans wanted us to swap him with Danny kirmond!!!
If he and hodgson had played in that 2013 grand final we would not still be getting mocked with always your year chants.

If Waterhouse had held onto that pass 3 metres out against Leeds in the GF, we wouldn't be hearing those chants either. Turning point of the game.