Price era v last 4 years of TS : Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:49 pm  

Looking at the overall Super League records (this includes playoffs, but excludes Challenge Cup games), our record in the past four years under Steve Price was very similar to that in the last four years under TS. That's a useful comparison point because it takes the TS era from 2014 to 2017, ie from just after the departures of Briers, Morley, Hodgson and Carvell and the point at which the superb team of 2009 to 2013 broke up.

Between 2014 and 2017, we played 121 games, 71 wins, 4 draws and 46 losses. 2820 points for, 2214 points against.

Between 2018 and 2021, we played 102 games, 62 wins, 2 draws and 38 losses. 2477 points for, 1737 points against.

If you take the win percentage (scoring a draw as half a win), then between 2014 and 2017 we won 60.3 per cent; between 2018 and 2021 we won 61.8 per cent.

The average points for / points against per game gives us an average game score of 23.3 - 18.3 between 2014 and 2017, and 24.3 - 17.0 between 2018 and 2021.

So overall, we were slightly better under Price. We won a slightly higher share of games, scored about a point more a game and conceded just over a point fewer per game.

We won 2 out of 4 playoff games between 2014 and 2017, and 1 out of 5 playoff games between 2018 and 2021. Although the win at Saints was a big highlight in 2018, that was the only time we won a playoff under Price, we lost the GF then went straight out in the playoffs to Cas, Hull FC and Hull KR.

Re: Price era v last 4 years of TS : Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:56 am  

Nice analysis. So it could be argued we have been in the doldrums for 8 years now, which tallies with the one major honour in the last 8 seasons. Our problems clearly pre date Price and even Tony Smith couldn't solve them in his last 4 years. Where are we going wrong?

Re: Price era v last 4 years of TS : Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:30 am  

Tony Smith needed the break from rugby league, he was jaded and he admitted as much. His influence over the team or players at his disposal were waning. That didn't help that the leaders of the team had all left and not been adequately replaced. I was delighted with Price after season 1 we became a much more solid outfit and reaching both finals was a great achievement. The trouble is after that we went backwards IMO, the alarm bells should have been going when we had a terrible run of form before the challenge cup final against saints and it didn't look like he had a clue how to turn it around. He abandoned the attack and tried to get out of it by defending for 80 minutes, our attack and resolve just got lower and lower every game! I still to this day have no idea where the saints performance came from, it was like us v Hull KR we held on and weather the storm and then turned the screw, an early saints score and I think they'd have wiped the floor with us. Then after the final we went back to being really poor and he gets a new contract!

I feel there has been a lot of wasted time over the past 8 years, we keep a coach until the end of the season, if Smith had gone earlier we may have been able to tempt Holbrook before Saints got involved and resigned Saints to Steve Price, not for 4 years though there is no way they would have tolerated that for 4 seasons. Sliding doors moment there possibly, Holbrook could potentially have won us the big one instead of Saints.

Re: Price era v last 4 years of TS : Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:17 am  

You can bend stats to fit many arguements. Truth is, Smith's tenure started to go stale after the 2013 GF bottle job. He'd already done 4 years with us, which was a great deal longer than the average term of a SL coach. I've said this before, maybe it would've been better for Smith to go, then, rather than stay for another 4.. Briers would've played for at least another 2 seasons IF he hadn't been told to stop playing immediately. Plus, our recruitment was poor (and bar a couple of exceptions) has remained so, ever since.
Smith remains my fave Wire coach, but maybe we should've been more ruthless.

Price, bar winning 4 CC games in 19, was pretty much a failure, considering what he had at his disposal. His style of rugby was always "playing with the handbrake on".

Re: Price era v last 4 years of TS : Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:38 am  

Didn't Price"s contract get extended at the end of his first year?
I thought it was extended before he lifted the CC.
We had some terrible luck in the last 4 years of the Tony Smith era. Particularly with the forwards.
I would guess that Smith was banking on Hill, Harrison, Grix and Westwood being the cornerstones of the pack to transition from Morley etc but Injuries to Grix and Harrison meant that they could not operate at the highest level. Throw in the injury to Mitchell Dodds and the tragedy that Dom Crosby went through meant that Hill and Sims were trying to hold it together.
I dont know this for sure but I would guess that some of the players that signed for the club were not signed by the coach but by people above them.
A lot of things are still the same as the TS era.
As much as I enjoyed watching Sandow in those first few months I am not convinced that he was a Tony Smith signing. Just not quite the right temprement and mentality. I have mentioned this a few times but nobody will ever convince me That Steve Price fully bought into the signing of Luther Burrell and that decision was made above him.
I remember reading an article when Matty Russell signed and he was going on about how he had spoken to Simon (Moran) before signing and I thought that was a bit strange. I could imagine Moran speaking to Morley to try and persuade him to come here but a relatively unknown Russell? I would have expected the article to say "I have had a good chat with Tony and he is building a team that will go to the next level"
Also interesting was Hill's interview after the game on Friday he also mentions Simon Moran. I will be eternally grateful for what Simon Moran and Co have done for this club but to go to the next level we need to be sure that the coach does not become undermined by players going to their Dad if they don't like what their Mum says.
There are signs that the cosy club is changing. Briers is going which is the right thing to do. Hill moving on. But the club needs to leave Powell to manage all first team affairs. If Powell is undermined in the slightest then he doesn't have total control and if he doesn't have total control then he has no control at all.

Re: Price era v last 4 years of TS : Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:46 am  

Deus Dat Incrementum wrote:

Didn't Price"s contract get extended at the end of his first year?
I thought it was extended before he lifted the CC.
We had some terrible luck in the last 4 years of the Tony Smith era. Particularly with the forwards.
I would guess that Smith was banking on Hill, Harrison, Grix and Westwood being the cornerstones of the pack to transition from Morley etc but Injuries to Grix and Harrison meant that they could not operate at the highest level. Throw in the injury to Mitchell Dodds and the tragedy that Dom Crosby went through meant that Hill and Sims were trying to hold it together.
I dont know this for sure but I would guess that some of the players that signed for the club were not signed by the coach but by people above them.
A lot of things are still the same as the TS era.
As much as I enjoyed watching Sandow in those first few months I am not convinced that he was a Tony Smith signing. Just not quite the right temprement and mentality. I have mentioned this a few times but nobody will ever convince me That Steve Price fully bought into the signing of Luther Burrell and that decision was made above him.
I remember reading an article when Matty Russell signed and he was going on about how he had spoken to Simon (Moran) before signing and I thought that was a bit strange. I could imagine Moran speaking to Morley to try and persuade him to come here but a relatively unknown Russell? I would have expected the article to say "I have had a good chat with Tony and he is building a team that will go to the next level"
Also interesting was Hill's interview after the game on Friday he also mentions Simon Moran. I will be eternally grateful for what Simon Moran and Co have done for this club but to go to the next level we need to be sure that the coach does not become undermined by players going to their Dad if they don't like what their Mum says.
There are signs that the cosy club is changing. Briers is going which is the right thing to do. Hill moving on. But the club needs to leave Powell to manage all first team affairs. If Powell is undermined in the slightest then he doesn't have total control and if he doesn't have total control then he has no control at all.

Spot on with that last paragraph, DDI.
I'm not exactly doing cartwheels over Powell's appointment, BUT, he MUST be left to his own devices. He has more than enough experience, and let's not forget both Moran and Middleton are merely fans. Let the "expert" get on with his job

Re: Price era v last 4 years of TS : Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:13 am  

Wires71 wrote:

Nice analysis. So it could be argued we have been in the doldrums for 8 years now, which tallies with the one major honour in the last 8 seasons. Our problems clearly pre date Price and even Tony Smith couldn't solve them in his last 4 years. Where are we going wrong?

Doldrums eh?
Well we certainly haven't got near the high expectations that we wish for. But I reckon of you asked RL supporters from other clubs they might disagree. Our fan base recently showed us to be the fifth best supported club with Leeds, Hull, Wigan, St Helens above us.. All things equal they might expect to better than us. We should be grateful for our very supportive board ... when some maniac criticised one of leading financial benefactors a few days I nearly choked on my corn flakes (I think the post has since been deleted).
I and many others have felt sick since the game v. HKR and everyone knows we should have done better. But being being too critical is a RL supporters problem which does not help our game. Meltdown by "fans" in perceived adversity just makes us look daft.

Re: Price era v last 4 years of TS : Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:10 am  

lefty goldblatt wrote:

Spot on with that last paragraph, DDI.
I'm not exactly doing cartwheels over Powell's appointment, BUT, he MUST be left to his own devices. He has more than enough experience, and let's not forget both Moran and Middleton are merely fans. Let the "expert" get on with his job

There is no evidence that Simon Moran is a 'meddling owner', making signings that the coach doesn't want, other than in the imagination of fans who get conspiracy theories that signings that didn't work out must have been imposed over the coaches head.

We don't know the set up of the club with respect to recruitment and who is in charge. It is fair to say that the club hasn't done a good job over about the last 8 years. But it also makes sense to have someone other than the coach involved, whether that be the CEO or bring in someone else to deal with recruitment and players' contracts. You need them to be able to work with the coach but you want the coach to focus their time on getting on the field and preparing the first team, and going through video of opponents, rather than doing all the recruitment admin. Also it can be helpful for the coach-dressing room dynamic, if someone else is in charge of contracts and retention, so if a player has a beef with the club over his contract, the argument isn't with the coach who is asking him to put his body on the line.

Also I am a bit wary of creating a 'supremo' type coach who has power over everything. They can be blind to their own mistakes. I'm sure if Powell was just filling our squad with his mates and ex Cas players our fans would quickly notice and start complaining. And what happens then if the coach doesn't work out, and you bring a new coach in, they immediately inherit a hostile dressing room who is loyal to their old boss. Recruitment needs to have a bit longer term vision and be prepared for the possibility that the coach might change.

Re: Price era v last 4 years of TS : Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:46 am  

Smiffy27 wrote:

Doldrums eh?
Well we certainly haven't got near the high expectations that we wish for. But I reckon of you asked RL supporters from other clubs they might disagree. Our fan base recently showed us to be the fifth best supported club with Leeds, Hull, Wigan, St Helens above us.. All things equal they might expect to better than us. We should be grateful for our very supportive board ... when some maniac criticised one of leading financial benefactors a few days I nearly choked on my corn flakes (I think the post has since been deleted).
I and many others have felt sick since the game v. HKR and everyone knows we should have done better. But being being too critical is a RL supporters problem which does not help our game. Meltdown by "fans" in perceived adversity just makes us look daft.

No meltdown from me. I ceased posting in March 2020 as it was clear we were with Price for the long term and criticism and frustration was futile. We were going nowhere as results have shown. I have higher hopes for Powell.

I guess "doldrums" based on the definition of "a state or period of stagnation". I think it is reasonable to state everyone involved with the club would have been aiming for higher achievements than we have delivered in 8 years. The 4 years of Price were broadly the same as the 4 years before - hence stagnation.

I do not see the link between size of support base and why we should be the 5th best SL team. KP keeps telling us he wants us to be the best and we have wealthy backers.

Re: Price era v last 4 years of TS : Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:57 am  

sally cinnamon wrote:

There is no evidence that Simon Moran is a 'meddling owner', making signings that the coach doesn't want, other than in the imagination of fans who get conspiracy theories that signings that didn't work out must have been imposed over the coaches head

No one's SAID "meddling owner", but that rather goes against DDI's article involving Russell's quote, and Andrew Johns says hi.
I can't imagine Paul Cullen banging on Simon Moran's door in the summer of 2005, saying " If you're off to Lord's for the cricket, Si, make sure you have a word with Joey about coming to the HJ, and I'll leave you to sort out Graham Appo if you manage to get him"