Re: How can we help French RL? : Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:26 pm  

Donnyman wrote:

1. You can have half the League French but if they all field English/Aussie players they won't improve the french International side one bit will they?.

2. Your as privvy as I am to what SL bosses say about the SKY deal and the inclusion of France and Toronto in Superleague - tell me honestly do you buy and read League Express and League Weekly?

3. Reflecting that Superleague bosses have constantly said the French need to bring to the table (said to Toulouse by Lenegan reported in the RL press) home grown players and TV deals (also said to Toronto who promised to do that - Perez article in the RL press) does not make me "strongly against" anything.

Again do you buy the RL press every Monday and read up what is said by those who run the game?? I do read it all up. Maybe it's you that makes it up?

Wow, love to live in the black and white world that you reside in
Your anti Catalan ramblings are something not really seen on here since Cas were relegated from 11th spot.

You keep banging on about how few French players Catalan have in their squad and, despite my suggesting that there could be a tweak in the rules to try and increase this number, you still haven't given up.
You also dont seem to acknowledge any French players in the comp, who aren't currently playing for Catalan but, again, that doesn't fit your argument.
As for the RL papers, I used to take League Weekly on subscription but, no longer do and would regard myself as an "occasional" buyer of the paper - hope that's ok with you ?
You could link or regurgitate the articles if you think they are really important though
However, it may be worth remembering that, just like The Sun and The Mail, much of what they print is deliberately provocative to try and help sell their journal and may not be 100% fact.
Indeed, Sadler, I believe, is a strong believer in expansion and a big fan of the N. American experiment ??, something that I personally believe is to the detriment of the UK game.
We also have people in the game like Peacock who, whilst at Leeds, was advocating a reduction to a 10 club SL and yet, once in situ at KR, went in completely the opposite direction and started to advocate expanding SL to 14 clubs.
It's all about sorting the wheat from the chaff and quite frankly, those running the game, need to have a clear objectives for how to raise the profile and participation levels in the game and a clear sense of how to achieve this. Which, for the record, getting rid of Catalan would, see a reduction in player numbers and a reduction in the games profile.
I wish there was a silver bullet that could propel RL higher up the sporting pecking order but, there just isn't
However, unlike you, I see great merit in getting a second French club (Toulouse) into SL. However, this should not be at the expense of another UK based club, it should be in addition to (just as I believe Toronto should be, too.

Re: How can we help French RL? : Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:31 am  

[quote="Donnyman"]
Then I don't know what your issue is if Pearson is happy with 3 overseas teams? I'd agree that in a 12 team super league, 3 overseas teams is enough.

Re: How can we help French RL? : Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:40 am  

Donnyman wrote:

Who said you need geographical spread for Superleague to work?? Reference please??

How do you know the sport will contract if it's only played across the M62 it seems to have been mainly played there for 124 years?? Reference please??

Who said that RL had contracted back to it's heartlands, when was it ever more than just a northern game? Reference Please??

Your hippocracy knows no bounds, you can spout the garbage above, I can tell you what Superleague bosses are saying.

I don't need to reference an opinion. Surely you can tell tell the difference between saying something as fact and opinion?

Re: How can we help French RL? : Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:31 am  

The Silent H wrote:

I don't need to reference an opinion. Surely you can tell tell the difference between saying something as fact and opinion?I don't know what your issue is if Pearson is happy with 3 overseas teams? I'd agree that in a 12 team super league, 3 overseas teams is enough.

I don't think Pearson said he was "happy with three overseas teams"

By all means reflect the facts as reported, by all means pass an opinion that may be in line with the facts, but please don't bother wasting your and my time trying to wriggle out of the actual point. If you think Pearson is happy with Hull.v.Catalans, Hull.v.Toronto and Hull.v.New York and would not mind Hull.K.R. making way for the latter, and Hull being even further away from a return to Hull.v.Bradford fixtures...........even though 80% of his clubs fanbase prefer HKR and Bradford to overseas opposition, and he would prefer the bigger crowds Rovers and Bulls bring, then you need to think again, concede this point and move the debate forward.

Re: How can we help French RL? : Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:39 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

1. Wow, love to live in the black and white world that you reside in

2. for the record, getting rid of Catalan would, see a reduction in player numbers and a reduction in the games profile, However, unlike you, I see great merit in getting a second French club (Toulouse) into SL. However, this should not be at the expense of another UK based club, it should be in addition to (just as I believe Toronto should be, too.

1. Cut the personal stuff my friend and stick to the debate, it's not about me...... and you only start slanging matches by taking that approach.

2. There is every chance that by this time next year you will have your wish and Toulouse may well replace HKR.

Now you need to explain your comment about the games "profile" which is about "attention" from people, we can measure that by the size of the TV audiences and the size of the games attendances. You really do need to look up Hull's likely attendances for games against Catalans and Toulouse and then consider the TV audience for such games. Then you need to consider the "profile" if they were against Bradford and Hull.KR (who could go down for Toulouse) instead. Also take into account the poll of people in Hull as regards overseas expansion - 80% weren't interested. You may be but they were not??.

3. Now of course your get out is your 14 club SL - or is it? Leeds, Saints, Wire, Wigan, Cas, Huddersfied, Salford, Hull, HKR and Wakefield............. Catalans, Toulouse, New York and Toronto?

QUESTION - Is that your vision for the future? Do you really believe the game should forget Bradford, Widnes, Leigh Newcastle, London and York now??
QUESTION - What do you do once Ottawa, Avignon and Vancouver make applications to join?? Go to 17 clubs or kick three more useless English clubs out??
QUESTION - as the player pool shrinks - especially in France - where would you think they would get all the players from, for even two more clubs in SL???

Not France not North America......

I really do not think you have thought this through have you. As Mr. Perez will tell you he needs (his words) at least 5 North American clubs in SL to get a TV deal there so we will need an 18 club league if you would not relegate any more English clubs.

Take your time with considering the scenario above, and my questions of you. Try not to insult me. It's just a debate on the game we both love to pass some time....

Re: How can we help French RL? : Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:44 am  

Why do some people keep banging on about Newcastle, York, neither have beena roaring success at any point.

Re: How can we help French RL? : Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:10 pm  

IR80 wrote:

Why do some people keep banging on about Newcastle, York, neither have beena roaring success at any point.

I'll take that one

Because York found a well off chairman and got a new ground........

Because Newcastle found a Millionaire chairman and started to develop new local players........

TWP have no ground and will never develop players AND unlike York and Newcastle will never sell any TV subscriptions......

So why do "some people" keep banging on and on and on and on and on and on about TWP?

Re: How can we help French RL? : Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:19 pm  

Donnyman wrote:

1. Cut the personal stuff my friend and stick to the debate, it's not about me...... and you only start slanging matches by taking that approach.

2. There is every chance that by this time next year you will have your wish and Toulouse may well replace HKR.

Now you need to explain your comment about the games "profile" which is about "attention" from people, we can measure that by the size of the TV audiences and the size of the games attendances. You really do need to look up Hull's likely attendances for games against Catalans and Toulouse and then consider the TV audience for such games. Then you need to consider the "profile" if they were against Bradford and Hull.KR (who could go down for Toulouse) instead. Also take into account the poll of people in Hull as regards overseas expansion - 80% weren't interested. You may be but they were not??.

3. Now of course your get out is your 14 club SL - or is it? Leeds, Saints, Wire, Wigan, Cas, Huddersfied, Salford, Hull, HKR and Wakefield............. Catalans, Toulouse, New York and Toronto?

QUESTION - Is that your vision for the future? Do you really believe the game should forget Bradford, Widnes, Leigh Newcastle, London and York now??
QUESTION - What do you do once Ottawa, Avignon and Vancouver make applications to join?? Go to 17 clubs or kick three more useless English clubs out??
QUESTION - as the player pool shrinks - especially in France - where would you think they would get all the players from, for even two more clubs in SL???

Not France not North America......

I really do not think you have thought this through have you. As Mr. Perez will tell you he needs (his words) at least 5 North American clubs in SL to get a TV deal there so we will need an 18 club league if you would not relegate any more English clubs.

Take your time with considering the scenario above, and my questions of you. Try not to insult me. It's just a debate on the game we both love to pass some time....

Do you really believe the game should forget Bradford, Widnes, Leigh Newcastle, London and York now??

Strange question. Now we should not forget about ANY club, including the ones that you mention, although, last time I looked, there was a pathway from the Championship into SL.
If ANY of those clubs wins their GF, then , they are up - end of - although you are being mighty generous to Bradford, Newcastle and probably Widnes as I dont see these clubs challenging for promotion just yet and you seem to have omitted Fev from your list.

What do you do once Ottawa, Avignon and Vancouver make applications to join??

I think that all of the above are some way off making the league structure and some dont exist

as the player pool shrinks - especially in France

My knowledge of participation numbers in France isn't good, although I'm sure that just as in the UK and in many other sports, they will be struggling to maintain and increase participation numbers. However, in France it probably more a case of turning a greater percentage of their current youth into pro or semi pro players.
You have already stated that Catalan, in your opinion aren't doing enough and I agree.
However, with a decent pathway from the amateur game, plus a decent level of coaching, I'm sure that more players could make the grade.

I've already said that the "European" league should increase to accommodate the overseas sides that can meet the relevant criteria, although there are limits in everything and again, I 've also suggested previously that the overseas clubs MUST be committed to developing their own players. Not doing so will ultimately end in failure.
FWIW, I think that Toulouse are doing ok in this regard, probably better than your average Championship or SL club and they should be encouraged to continue doing so.
France does have a game to build on, which, just as you keep arguing that losing English clubs may be detrimental to the sport over here, surely, the same applies if we jettison Catalan and tell Toulouse to do one and drop them from The Championship ?

Re: How can we help French RL? : Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:26 pm  

Sounds as if the Catalans games might be shown after all. https://www.totalrl.com/elstone-admits- ... ed-sooner/ From TotalRL: Meanwhile, Elstone has revealed that they are working hard behind the scenes to secure TV deals for games that will be held in France and Canada in 2020. Catalans are notoriously still yet to finalise an agreement with a broadcaster, and the spotlight will be on how Toronto’s home games are broadcasted when they go back to Canada. Elstone said he believes a ‘healthy amount’ of fixtures from overseas will be shown. He said: “We’re still continuing to work on making sure that home games in Perpignan and Toronto get as much coverage as possible, but that situation is quite fluid. Certainly the big games in Canada and France will get screened and that’s important to us and the clubs from their own point of view. We’re hopeful that a healthy amount of those games will be screened.” Elstone's use of the pronoun "we" suggests success is in the air. In contrast, it's very notable that in the same article he announces that the RFL is dealing with TWP's dispensation issues on behalf of SL

Sounds as if the Catalans games might be shown after all. https://www.totalrl.com/elstone-admits- ... ed-sooner/ From TotalRL: Meanwhile, Elstone has revealed that they are working hard behind the scenes to secure TV deals for games that will be held in France and Canada in 2020. Catalans are notoriously still yet to finalise an agreement with a broadcaster, and the spotlight will be on how Toronto’s home games are broadcasted when they go back to Canada. Elstone said he believes a ‘healthy amount’ of fixtures from overseas will be shown. He said: “We’re still continuing to work on making sure that home games in Perpignan and Toronto get as much coverage as possible, but that situation is quite fluid. Certainly the big games in Canada and France will get screened and that’s important to us and the clubs from their own point of view. We’re hopeful that a healthy amount of those games will be screened.” Elstone's use of the pronoun "we" suggests success is in the air. In contrast, it's very notable that in the same article he announces that the RFL is dealing with TWP's dispensation issues on behalf of SL

Re: How can we help French RL? : Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:36 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Do you really believe the game should forget Bradford, Widnes, Leigh Newcastle, London and York now??

Strange question. Now we should not forget about ANY club, including the ones that you mention, although, last time I looked, there was a pathway from the Championship into SL.
If ANY of those clubs wins their GF, then , they are up - end of - although you are being mighty generous to Bradford, Newcastle and probably Widnes as I dont see these clubs challenging for promotion just yet and you seem to have omitted Fev from your list.

What do you do once Ottawa, Avignon and Vancouver make applications to join??

I think that all of the above are some way off making the league structure and some dont exist

as the player pool shrinks - especially in France

My knowledge of participation numbers in France isn't good, although I'm sure that just as in the UK and in many other sports, they will be struggling to maintain and increase participation numbers. However, in France it probably more a case of turning a greater percentage of their current youth into pro or semi pro players.
You have already stated that Catalan, in your opinion aren't doing enough and I agree.
However, with a decent pathway from the amateur game, plus a decent level of coaching, I'm sure that more players could make the grade.

I've already said that the "European" league should increase to accommodate the overseas sides that can meet the relevant criteria, although there are limits in everything and again, I 've also suggested previously that the overseas clubs MUST be committed to developing their own players. Not doing so will ultimately end in failure.
FWIW, I think that Toulouse are doing ok in this regard, probably better than your average Championship or SL club and they should be encouraged to continue doing so.
France does have a game to build on, which, just as you keep arguing that losing English clubs may be detrimental to the sport over here, surely, the same applies if we jettison Catalan and tell Toulouse to do one and drop them from The Championship ?

Thanks very much for your polite and considered viewpoints Wrencat.

For the avoidance of doubt I would say that once 2021 is over any entry to Superleague and indeed any continuation of any "guest" club in Superleague will be dependant on the Superleague clubs saying they are OK with this. Saying OK to Catalans Toulouse and Toronto as guests takes three places in SL away from actual member clubs like Newcastle, Leigh Bradford, Widnes and Featherstone Rovers.

Once again Catalans were allowed in so they could develop French pro players for the international side and they aren't doing this they are going backwards, they even closed their academy. Toulouse have no player development system nor do Toronto.

On what basis do you think full members of the game here who underpin an English TV deal and develop players through their Foundation/academy/reserves set ups can EVER be pushed aside for guest clubs from abroad that don't do anything for the player pool or the TV deal??

My question was not "strange", but your idea that non TV contract or Player producing guest clubs should ever be preferred to player producing, TV deal producing member clubs certainly is "strange" can you explain this please??