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Re: The Key to Success is...
Post Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:26 pm
Posted by notorious on Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:26 pm
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Steven Toast wrote:
The SL chairmen are hopefully savvy enough to realise this is a very, very important time for the game, new TV deal and all, and they will likely put an end to a lot of this nonsense in the near future. In fact it will take care of itself in most instances as most of these new "projects" are about as robust as a chocolate fireguard and have no chance of ever getting within a mile of SL. The RFL however really need to take stock of what they are actually about.


Moving on slightly, because while I take your point we could go round in circles for a while, this last point interests me. Do you not think it’s a major issue that they haven’t really settled on a position yet? They might not be as savvy as you give them credit for and they/the RFL should really have taken stock a long time ago. Like I said before it seems to be one foot in and one foot out on expansion and that is going to lead to a shocking negotiating position. From the sounds of it Elstone seems only to be interested in a deal with Sky which limits our negotiating position further.
Re: The Key to Success is...
Post Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:50 pm
Posted by Steven Toast on Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:50 pm
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notorious wrote:
Moving on slightly, because while I take your point we could go round in circles for a while, this last point interests me. Do you not think it’s a major issue that they haven’t really settled on a position yet? They might not be as savvy as you give them credit for and they/the RFL should really have taken stock a long time ago. Like I said before it seems to be one foot in and one foot out on expansion and that is going to lead to a shocking negotiating position. From the sounds of it Elstone seems only to be interested in a deal with Sky which limits our negotiating position further.


SL/RFL are two wildly differing things now despite Mr Lenagan's latest hint at the cooperation of Simon Johnson.

Elstone is interested in whatever the SL chairmen tell him to be interested in and that is SL only. I think they would be over the moon with getting exactly the same price they got last time as long as it is divided between them only.

I don't see the expansion issue arising in SL/SKY negotiations, aside the Elephant in the room that is Toronto (who might well only be a short term irritant to the SL chairmen anyway). I think SKY and SL will both be on the same page on that (non) issue.

The RFL however seem to have the own agenda and are happy to entertain anyone who ventures even the wildest of ideas. I am not sure there is any long term plan for it all and much will fizzle out but some sort of statement of direction and plan for the future of the game outside SL cannot hurt. They really need to be looking after the needs of the existing members and the potential of such as Newcastle and York as SL will cut them adrift given the opportunity or need.
Re: The Key to Success is...
Post Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:48 am
Posted by Donnyman on Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:48 am
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notorious wrote:

I thought the overseas club quota commitment came from Elstone not Sky? And was in anticipation of our negotiations for the next TV deal. Nice of him to undermine our negotiating position in advance. This is what annoys me about the offcial approach to expansion - there is one foot in and one foot out. Either they have faith in the approach or they drop it. This 'on the fence' strategy is set up to fail. On your second point - the clubs, especially the big ones, will always want a bigger piece of the pie and they obviously foresee a smaller TV deal and less money. That doesn't guarantee we go down to 10 teams though as a new TV deal may be reliant on a minimum number of games/teams. If they follow the Toronto model we could end up with 9 current teams taking central funding and 3 expansion teams funding themselves as one example. Championship funding could also be cut as another. Many questions to answer and absolute no guarantee we go down to 10 teams.



It may well have been Elstone, but the fact seems to be in a 12 club set up 9 must be English clubs to satisfy SKY's English subscribers. I can understand this as SKY perhaps should not block the games ambitions to expand, had TWP gone up last year, and Toulouse gone up this year we would have such a set up.

But the key word is "expand" and the definition of this whether as it was as defined to Catalans in 2006, Toulouse 2015 or Toronto 2016 was that Superleague does not want an expansion of the number of miles it takes to get to games, and they don't care what crowds "expansion" clubs get because few away fans will come here anyway.

For all three expansion clubs the expansion required was defined as more TV money from French and North American broadcasters and more quality players, and for Catalans that meant players good enough to stock the French International side - we must remember that. We must also remember for Toronto the game did not want to wait 40 years whilst TWP developed a "grass roots" they wanted players NOW and were promised grid iron conversions.

So when SL review the new SKY deal at whatever level it may be - maybe between £120-150M for a 5 year deal, then they will have to revue the inclusion of overseas sides to create expansion. You know as well as I do that review will expose Catalans, Toronto and Toulouse as total failures to expand the SL player base or the SL TV money.

I never ever said there would be a total guarantee SL would drop to ten. But given...

a. Expansion has been a complete 100% failure on the targets the game here set for the expansion clubs
b. There will be less money to share amongst the English clubs
c. SL have already tried to drop to 10 but lost the vote a year ago - but can revisit that and win it at the TV negotiations
d. We don't have 12 English clubs with solid backing from benevolent benefactors

.....Then clearly the odds for a 12 club Superleague are around 100-1 against and for a 10 club superleague odds on, that's of course "absolutely no guarantee" but very very likely for good reasons. I see no reason for the clubs to continue with failed expansion clubs nor put clubs in SL who can't afford it..............Don't you??
Re: The Key to Success is...
Post Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:39 am
Posted by Donnyman on Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:39 am
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notorious wrote:
I thought the overseas club quota commitment came from Elstone not Sky? And was in anticipation of our negotiations for the next TV deal. On your second point - the clubs, especially the big ones, will always want a bigger piece of the pie and they obviously foresee a smaller TV deal and less money. That doesn't guarantee we go down to 10 teams though. If they follow the Toronto model we could end up with 9 current teams taking central funding and 3 expansion teams funding themselves as one example. Many questions to answer and absolute no guarantee we go down to 10 teams.


Just on the 10 teams thing I've managed to find the link here........

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/5610037/ ... tier-plan/

""Top flight clubs are talking about the future of the competition after seizing more power from the Rugby Football League over the off-season. It is expected they will vote on whether to increase the top tier to 14, with much stricter off-field rules on eligibility to play in Super League, for the 2020 campaign. But SunSport has learned of another proposal that would see it cut from 12 to 10, with another tier of 10 underneath. However, all central funding would go to those 20 clubs, meaning anyone outside them would have to find money themselves or wither and die"".

No absolute guarantee but SL tried it the other year and lost the vote..................It's worth looking these things up.
Re: The Key to Success is...
Post Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:57 am
Posted by The Silent H on Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:57 am
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Donnyman wrote:
Just on the 10 teams thing I've managed to find the link here........

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/5610037/ ... tier-plan/

""Top flight clubs are talking about the future of the competition after seizing more power from the Rugby Football League over the off-season. It is expected they will vote on whether to increase the top tier to 14, with much stricter off-field rules on eligibility to play in Super League, for the 2020 campaign. But SunSport has learned of another proposal that would see it cut from 12 to 10, with another tier of 10 underneath. However, all central funding would go to those 20 clubs, meaning anyone outside them would have to find money themselves or wither and die"".

No absolute guarantee but SL tried it the other year and lost the vote..................It's worth looking these things up.

It's worth noting that the link you quoted is basically a year old. Things move forward quickly in sport and while you have some good points, quoting old material and hoping for a reduction in teams is not helping imo.
Re: The Key to Success is...
Post Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:05 am
Posted by Donnyman on Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:05 am
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The Silent H wrote:
It's worth noting that the link you quoted is basically a year old. Things move forward quickly in sport and while you have some good points, quoting old material and hoping for a reduction in teams is not helping imo.


"OLD MATERIAL? REALLY??

With respect dismissing a major vote on the structure of the game in which clubs differences were laid bare, because it was a year ago and where the Superleague giants got a bloody nose from the RFL and the Championship clubs doesn't help one bit. Effectively that vote settled the "matter" only at the time, but to pretend Superleague are going to take that on the chin and in 2022 they are going to divvy up a lot smaller TV deal across what?? 37 clubs plus six more with Ottawa, New York, Vancouver, Timbuktoo, Valencia and Belgrade making 43 clubs -well you have to be joking.

The whole reason Lenegan, Moran, Davey, Koukash Pearson and Hudgell were at bitter loggerheads with the RFL was that the RFL took large amounts of the SKY deal and gave that to the Championship. As a result Superleague embarked on a long battle with the RFL for control of the game. Superleague won that and it will be Superleague NOT the RFL who negotiate the SKY deal this time. How can you indicate that looking back at these major events off field aren't helping the debate going forward???

The result of the battle between the Superleague clubs who now have McManus Fulton and Carter on board, and the RFL was the impending closure of Red Hall and the mass redundancies therein. The next stage in the ongoing dispute is for the Superleague bosses to negotiate the 2022 deal. In forcing a vote in which SL basically said "we are planning to dump 17 clubs"sent a very big signal to the game, you appear oblivious to? OK the vote was lost then but you cannot pretend that is the end of it when at some point in the future the new SKY deal can pay Superleague clubs ONLY for Superleague rights in the same way they did on all the TV deals before the one Solly and Wood negotiated, "shafted" Superleague giving £millions to the Championship.

Read it all up carefully. McManus appears to be saying SL "won't leave the championship out of the SKY deal", but he doesn't define what he means by the championship? is it the 27 existing clubs? or the 10 clubs he was planning for?. In that vote a year ago the championship was going to be only 10 clubs if Superleague had had their way. YES the vote was lost but the clear signal was still there. The next SKY deal will be negotiated by Lenegan, Pearson, McManus and Hudgell and most likely the money will be organised such that only 20 clubs get a share.

The vote on that will NOT include Championship votes this time - they will be helpless....This is NOT "old material" is it??

The vote on the new deal will be taken by Rimmer for the RFL (who have ONE casting vote) and Lenegan, McManus, Caddick, Hudgell, Pearson, Carter, Fulton, Davey, Moran and whoever holds Salford's vote. TWP and Catalans should abstain as guests, the championship get no say and this time whatever Superleague want Superleague will get. It really is worth taking notice of what happens off the field as it will shape the game 2022 onwards, you may have noticed Nigel Wood reappear with Bradford, and TWP not signing up a raft of new players but securing their squad only for 2020 and 2021. You may have noticed not a peep from NY or Ottawa who both passed up chances to join next year. You may have noticed Les Catalans can no longer be bothered with the development of French players any more.

You may have noticed most tellingly Perez has jumped ship and is now at Bradford working for wood It DOES help to carefully watch the politics and the events of this matter it then helps us see which way things are going, and that ain't Transatlantic, it certainly ain't 43 clubs......
Re: The Key to Success is...
Post Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:50 am
Posted by IR80 on Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:50 am
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Donnyman wrote:
You may have noticed most tellingly Perez has jumped ship and is now at Bradford working for wood It DOES help to carefully watch the politics and the events of this matter it then helps us see which way things are going, and that ain't Transatlantic, it certainly ain't 43 clubs......

it is interesting that Hull FC have partnered with Bradford, AP keeping friends close and enemies closer?
Re: The Key to Success is...
Post Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:28 am
Posted by The Silent H on Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:28 am
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Donnyman wrote:
"OLD MATERIAL? REALLY??

With respect dismissing a major vote on the structure of the game in which clubs differences were laid bare, because it was a year ago and where the Superleague giants got a bloody nose from the RFL and the Championship clubs doesn't help one bit. Effectively that vote settled the "matter" only at the time, but to pretend Superleague are going to take that on the chin and in 2022 they are going to divvy up a lot smaller TV deal across what?? 37 clubs plus six more with Ottawa, New York, Vancouver, Timbuktoo, Valencia and Belgrade making 43 clubs -well you have to be joking.

The whole reason Lenegan, Moran, Davey, Koukash Pearson and Hudgell were at bitter loggerheads with the RFL was that the RFL took large amounts of the SKY deal and gave that to the Championship. As a result Superleague embarked on a long battle with the RFL for control of the game. Superleague won that and it will be Superleague NOT the RFL who negotiate the SKY deal this time. How can you indicate that looking back at these major events off field aren't helping the debate going forward???

The result of the battle between the Superleague clubs who now have McManus Fulton and Carter on board, and the RFL was the impending closure of Red Hall and the mass redundancies therein. The next stage in the ongoing dispute is for the Superleague bosses to negotiate the 2022 deal. In forcing a vote in which SL basically said "we are planning to dump 17 clubs"sent a very big signal to the game, you appear oblivious to? OK the vote was lost then but you cannot pretend that is the end of it when at some point in the future the new SKY deal can pay Superleague clubs ONLY for Superleague rights in the same way they did on all the TV deals before the one Solly and Wood negotiated, "shafted" Superleague giving £millions to the Championship.

Read it all up carefully. McManus appears to be saying SL "won't leave the championship out of the SKY deal", but he doesn't define what he means by the championship? is it the 27 existing clubs? or the 10 clubs he was planning for?. In that vote a year ago the championship was going to be only 10 clubs if Superleague had had their way. YES the vote was lost but the clear signal was still there. The next SKY deal will be negotiated by Lenegan, Pearson, McManus and Hudgell and most likely the money will be organised such that only 20 clubs get a share.

The vote on that will NOT include Championship votes this time - they will be helpless....This is NOT "old material" is it??

The vote on the new deal will be taken by Rimmer for the RFL (who have ONE casting vote) and Lenegan, McManus, Caddick, Hudgell, Pearson, Carter, Fulton, Davey, Moran and whoever holds Salford's vote. TWP and Catalans should abstain as guests, the championship get no say and this time whatever Superleague want Superleague will get. It really is worth taking notice of what happens off the field as it will shape the game 2022 onwards, you may have noticed Nigel Wood reappear with Bradford, and TWP not signing up a raft of new players but securing their squad only for 2020 and 2021. You may have noticed not a peep from NY or Ottawa who both passed up chances to join next year. You may have noticed Les Catalans can no longer be bothered with the development of French players any more.

You may have noticed most tellingly Perez has jumped ship and is now at Bradford working for wood It DOES help to carefully watch the politics and the events of this matter it then helps us see which way things are going, and that ain't Transatlantic, it certainly ain't 43 clubs......

You can bet that any one of those Chairmen's priorities will change when one of them gets relegated at the end of the year, the question is who will it be.

Plus Ottawa and NYC haven't passed up anything as there will be an announcement soon about their plans for 2021. What that is, is anyones guess.
Re: The Key to Success is...
Post Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:35 am
Posted by Donnyman on Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:35 am
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The Silent H wrote:
You can bet that any one of those Chairmen's priorities will change when one of them gets relegated at the end of the year, the question is who will it be.


All the chairmen will accept relegation as long as they are replaced by other chairmen of full membership owning English clubs who meet Superleague standards. Outside of the 10 English chairmen in Superleague, you have the following Gentlemen and their clubs who retain Superleague ambitions.

Mr. John Flatman......YORK
Mr. Semor Kurdi.......NEWCASTLE
Mr. Nigel Wood .......BRADFORD
Mr. Chris Shaw.......WIDNES
Mr. David Hughes....LONDON
Mr. Derek Beaumont....LEIGH

Four of the clubs clubs are already committed to player development and accept a mandatory requirement to run reserves. York are struggling on that issue as the local amateur game doesn't have the numbers. Should Leigh go up reserves should appear. Player development was made mandatory for SL clubs with the advent of the reserves league, and that mandatory requirement was stretched to Newcastle, Bradford, Widnes and London. We therefore now have 14 English clubs at the forefront of the game, who are in good shape and good hands to move forward into the new era of the re-vamp of the game and the new TV deal in 2022.

York will need to boost playing numbers in the city, AFAIK Salford will meet the Reserves criteria.

Whether Superleague stays at 12 clubs in 2022 or drops to 10 we shall have to wait and see, but it could not be more clearer that Superleague has already set it's criteria for future membership of the revamped Elite competition in 2022. The current Superleague competition is now playing out it's final two years of the contract i.e. 2020 and 2021 under the signed arrangement agreed between the RFL and the Superleague.

It is very clear that the current English SL clubs are already making plans for 2022 - wether that is 10 or 12 clubs they have 15 English clubs lined up for that, all of whom will have to meet the rule of running a Reserves side. [b]It really is not hard to see the intent behind the sudden introduction of a rule that puts the likes of Bradford and Widnes in the driving seat in the queue for Superleague 2022 onwards, and leaves Les Catalans and Toronto stranded as ineligble for Superleague 2022 onwards.[/b]

TWP's rection was to send McDermott out to admit they won't be developing any players, and of course the club has no players at all contracted to play in 2022. Deals are only being extended to 2021. As for Les Catalans, no reserves, no academy and they are currently looking for more English players to add to their first choice team. Why do these clubs bother to play on? I assume they are contractually committed to see their time out, and not spit the dummy out.

Expansion was always about expanding the pro player pool, TWP and Catalans are (1) failures on that, it was about TV deals that paid money, TWP and Catalans are (2) failures on that as well, and currently 14 English clubs meet the new criteria for inclusion in Superleague post 2021. Those are the facts of the matter.

Meanwhile at League Express Towers and RL Weekly heights these giants of the RL press have gone a bit quiet on their to date unstinting support for the Transatlantic dream. They would do well to start to discuss and champion this element of apparent resurgence in the English game.....
Last edited by Donnyman on Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: The Key to Success is...
Post Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:09 am
Posted by Donnyman on Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:09 am
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notorious wrote:
Why does there need to be nine English clubs?


Because the TV deal sells subscriptions to English fans. English fans love Hull.v.HKR, they love Leeds.v.Bradford. they love Wigan.v.Leigh, they love Hull.v.HKR, they love Warrington.v. Widnes they love Castleford.v.Wakefield......... That's 12 clubs English fans adore, and key games they look forward to. They also like the idea of expansion so London.v.Newcastle looks to be a great fixture for TV don't you think??

You called me "Myopic" in an earlier post, I think with respect it's you that can't see the future, and it ain't Ottawa.v.Toronto, New York,v,Boston, or Toulouse.v.Catalans, unless they can find any SL quality players and overseas TV deals? Can you see any?? you have better eyesight than me???
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