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Re: New York are bolted on...
Post Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:37 pm
Posted by Donnyman on Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:37 pm
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wrencat1873 wrote:
They will need to do some rapid work to have any of their own players SL ready in that timescale. Despite the previous poster suggesting that there are 1000 RL players in the area, how good are any of these players ? If they were up to Championship quality, some would already be over here. It's more likely that they are of conference standard, enjoying a game on a Saturday afternoon.

The reality is that the new N. American clubs will be taking the bulk of their players from the UK, topped out with "Aussie" players. The reality is that for each club formed in N. America, there will be a casualty in the UK. Lets not kid ourselves that there will be a championship or SL club in N. America with and "home grown players on their roster- this would take 10/15 years.


10 to 15 years can't even happen unless large enough numbers of North American youngsters take up Rugby league, along with NA coaches and other volunteers? When will that ever happen there? The USARL on wiki appears to be a handful of clubs playing a handful of games. I've seen it suggested most of them are actually Rugby Union players playing a bit of league off season . What is the truth of the matter?? How can there be 1,000 USA players when last year only eight clubs played between six and eight games? :shock:

I can't help thinking that London losing their status to TWP was a blow for the English game, so do Wakefield go for New York, do Huddersfield go for Ottawa, do Salford go for Boston and do HKR go for Montreal and do Castleford go for Vancouver?? Last week Aussie administrator Shane Richardson (who founded Gateshead) commented there were only enough quality players for a 10 club Superleague in the Northern Hemisphere. If I am to believe anyone I'd believe him. Do half the English SL club owners and their fans just stand aside whilst their clubs are excluded from superleague and their players shipped to America?? There must come a point where very serious conflict arises???
Re: New York are bolted on...
Post Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:42 am
Posted by roopy on Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:42 am
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I said there are about 1000 guys who have played League over the 20 years they have been playing.
They are all guys who have a good, solid grounding in our game and could contribute in some way, if only explaining the game to fellow Americans.
The Toronto team came from absolutely no where with no ground work to build on.
New York is a much larger and richer city with a much larger ex-pat community, 20 solid years of ground work including efforts to develop highschool and junior comps, and they also have the blueprint of Toronto to follow.
Any rational person (not you lot) could see that they come from a much stronger position than Toronto started from.
If Toronto had followed your script and failed miserably at every turn, you might have an argument that a better prepared bid from New York is also doomed from the start, but guess what, Toronto have achieved all they set out to achieve till this point.
Re: New York are bolted on...
Post Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:53 am
Posted by AXE2GRIND on Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:53 am
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Donnyman wrote:
There must come a point where very serious conflict arises???

The important bit here is that Toronto were driven by Perez and funded by a RL fan with cash to burn. Perez walked when it became apparent that Argyle wasn't interested in development, but more so in success. This isn't a new thing in sports or RL. David Hughes is on record as saying he funds the London Broncos so he can watch his team with his mates. There's no harm in this, so long as it doesn't negatively impact the league they play in.....in my eyes, it doesn't, so let him carry on.
The problem with NYC is that this is being driven by a couple of amateur enthusiasts, who claim to have backers in place and grand plans for converting Union/NFL players, but with very little of substance thereafter.
It's not dissimilar to the early days of Toronto, but will NYC stick to their plan or will the money men either take the reigns like Argyle did, or walk once they realise that this is a £20,000,000 investment that will continue to lose shed loads of money until they have 4 or 5 other North American Clubs with something to sell to TV execs.

There's an interview on another site with the bloke at the helm of Toronto. He's asked if they are looking at buying the rights for their games from SKY...the answer is pretty non-committal. He does say that SBW signing will add 1,000 season tickets to their income and that they expect to sell 2,500 all told. CA$399 X 2,500....call it a Million Canadian Dollars or £600k. The Cost of running a SL club is a minimum of £4,000,000. Add into that SBW's £2.5 million a year and this is a money pit that cannot hope to make a cent in return in its current stadium or with no TV income.....this is the business model that the NYC and other "investors" are seeing.....it's not sustainable
Re: New York are bolted on...
Post Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:13 am
Posted by AXE2GRIND on Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:13 am
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roopy wrote:
and they also have the blueprint of Toronto to follow.

What? A wealthy Bloke who lost patience with the "find a star' approach, so binned off the driving force who wanted local development and instead filled the team with mercenaries and the stadium with free tickts and who has so far flushed between £5 and 10 million down the pan excluding SBW? Yeah...that's a cracking business model and I've repeatedly shown what happened to the much wealthier London Monarchs.........
roopy wrote:
Any rational person (not you lot) could see that they come from a much stronger position than Toronto started from.

No they don't. We have no idea who the money is, who the airline sponsor is, the hotel sponsor is....we've just got a gym teacher and an admin bloke from NZ police blowing smoke up a load of 'arrises!
Re: New York are bolted on...
Post Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:23 am
Posted by AXE2GRIND on Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:23 am
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roopy wrote:
I said there are about 1000 guys who have played League over the 20 years they have been playing.

There are more than a 1,000 such blokes in London.....and I'd hazard a guess in Perth WA as well, but the NRL aren't interested in WA whilst you and your cult think North America is the answer :CRAZY:
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Re: New York are bolted on...
Post Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:59 am
Posted by JEAN CAPDOUZE on Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:59 am
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AXE2GRIND wrote:
There are more than a 1,000 such blokes in London.....and I'd hazard a guess in Perth WA as well, but the NRL aren't interested in WA whilst you and your cult think North America is the answer :CRAZY:
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North America is the answer

What a shame that aging eccentrics such as yourself are too stuck in their old ways of thinking to grasp the possibilities.
Toulouse for Championship in 2017, Super League in 2021!

Avignon for Championship in 2021, Super League in 2022!
Re: New York are bolted on...
Post Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:38 am
Posted by wrencat1873 on Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:38 am
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JEAN CAPDOUZE wrote:
North America is the answer

What a shame that aging eccentrics such as yourself are too stuck in their old ways of thinking to grasp the possibilities.


Possibilities ??
Anything in theory is possible but, we need to look at probabilities and certainty.
There are some on here (including yourself) who would dismantle the game in the UK and instead create a "satellite" club in any city in the world and mark it down as success and then in a few years time, wonder where all the players have gone.
There HAS to be some structure beneath the headline club or we are actually KILLING THE GAME.

When Toronto were formed there was great play made of their "search for a star" idea, where they were having trails accross different towns/ cities in N. America. Was there any progress here ??

I realise that any kind of junior structure will take lots of time (and money) but, just what are Toronto doing in this area or, is it all about SBW and keep building without foundations.
Re: New York are bolted on...
Post Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:35 am
Posted by bramleyrhino on Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:35 am
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wrencat1873 wrote:
in a few years time, wonder where all the players have gone.
There HAS to be some structure beneath the headline club or we are actually KILLING THE GAME.


What substance is there to this claim? In what way does having Toronto, New York or any other non-heartland city in the game's top flight cause the people running the amateur scene in West Yorkshire or the Wigan / St Helens / Warrington triangle to pack it in?

Isn't it a huge positive that this sport could provide young men from those parts of Northern England an opportunity to live and work in some of North America's most exciting cities? That it can provide young people to see part of the world that they might otherwise struggle to see?

Or are well holding onto this ideal that what young people really grow up dreaming of is playing in front of less than 5,000 people at crumbling, ramshackle dumps along the M62?

The first North American Super League players probably haven't even been born yet. If they have, they're almost certainly still in pampers. If North American clubs are still around in two decades time, then let's start asking where the local players are. Until then, I don't think it's a bad thing that young players in the UK are being presented with opportunities to live and work in places like Toronto.
I wish everyone would read bramleyrhino's post two or three times just to get it through some thick skulls


Mr bramleyrhino speaks a lot of sense.


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Re: New York are bolted on...
Post Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:12 am
Posted by wrencat1873 on Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:12 am
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bramleyrhino wrote:
What substance is there to this claim? In what way does having Toronto, New York or any other non-heartland city in the game's top flight cause the people running the amateur scene in West Yorkshire or the Wigan / St Helens / Warrington triangle to pack it in?

Isn't it a huge positive that this sport could provide young men from those parts of Northern England an opportunity to live and work in some of North America's most exciting cities? That it can provide young people to see part of the world that they might otherwise struggle to see?

Or are well holding onto this ideal that what young people really grow up dreaming of is playing in front of less than 5,000 people at crumbling, ramshackle dumps along the M62?

The first North American Super League players probably haven't even been born yet. If they have, they're almost certainly still in pampers. If North American clubs are still around in two decades time, then let's start asking where the local players are. Until then, I don't think it's a bad thing that young players in the UK are being presented with opportunities to live and work in places like Toronto.


Although there would be opportunities for professional players in N. America, the junior sides would still be based in the UK, which although great for the remaining UK based clubs, would REDUCE options for youngsters, unless of course ALL of the academy sides were based in the UK but, what is the point in that ?
There has to be lot's of work done at ground level or we will destroy the game over here.
Fundamentally, you are saying that you are happy for the UK clubs to be the supply chain for the overseas expansion clubs, having lost their spot in the top flight, you still "expect" them to produce the players for the new clubs, sorry but that isn't right.
Although so many posters on here deride the support of the smaller clubs but, that support goes way deeper than turning up on a Sunday afternoon (of Friday night). It's those supporters that may have played the game and take their kids to the local club to train, because they have an interest in the sport.
If they perceive that the sport doesn't want them, they will invest their time and money in other things.
Although they were relegated from SL for a different reason, where do you think those 1000's of Bulls fans have gone and are they still taking their kids to the local clubs etc ?
Participation numbers are already on the decline and this move (N. America) will see those numbers fall further.

Unless their is a genuine plan to engage with schools etc in N. America and set up junior RL, we are kidding ourselves.

Yes, some shiny new clubs in N. America, filled with some of the best players but, the UK turned into a RL "ghost town".

This has all of the hallmarks of a RL "stunt", going for a quick fix, without any thought of the actual future of the game.
Re: New York are bolted on...
Post Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:48 am
Posted by Donnyman on Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:48 am
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bramleyrhino wrote:
What substance is there to this claim? In what way does having Toronto, New York or any other non-heartland city in the game's top flight cause the people running the amateur scene in West Yorkshire or the Wigan / St Helens / Warrington triangle to pack it in? Or are well holding onto this ideal that what young people really grow up dreaming of is playing in front of less than 5,000 people at crumbling, ramshackle dumps along the M62? If North American clubs are still around in two decades time, then let's start asking where the local players are. Until then, I don't think it's a bad thing that young players in the UK are being presented with opportunities to live and work in places like Toronto.


My take is that all English Superleague clubs have a "charitable foundation" which mixes charity work with the promotion of youngsters playing Rugby league in the local schools and junior leagues. This is funded by SKY money but supported and staffed by the clubs as they know that if the local junior base shrinks (or that shrinkage accelerates) the supply of players reduces. Superleague went to 14 at one point, reduced to 12 and now the direction is down to 10 as evidenced by various comments and proposals in recent years. Shane Richardson has been the latest to say our game isn't capable of finding the players for any more than 10 quality squads.

I'm not taking any sides here just pointing out that if we remove Salford, Castleford, Huddersfield and Wakefield, (and take away any way back for Widnes and Bradford) do we think the loss of development foundations at these clubs/towns won't affect junior playing numbers? If we only have Hull, Leeds Wire Wigan and Saints in a 10 club Superleague with Toulouse Catalans, New York, Ottawa and Toronto do we think people who are into RL in an active way running junior ARL will want to do that for the benefit of overseas clubs who elbow out their own clubs just because they are rich. I can't think of many clubs as well locally populated with RL enthusiasts as Castleford, but I fear replacing them with Ottawa, won't see dads and lads flooding to Lock Lane in the hope young Malcolm Junior will one day play in Ottawa. I think the angry dad will more likely pack it in and encourage the lad to play soccer instead. My question of you is do you think the six clubs and their business sponsors and local supporters that I name will be happy to all go part time for good to accommodate overseas clubs???
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