Rugby Union World Cup : Tue Sep 29, 2015 2:14 pm  

I've been a Rhinos supporter all my life and I'm trying to understand the fascination with Rugby Union. I'd love to be able to watch and understand it but I cant see the logic. They fight like mad to win the ball then kick it. I sometimes think I'm not watching the same game as the commentators as every pass, every tackle is fantastic, there seems to be a complete over hype going on. Im not fully convinced the skill factor is very high because if the ref blew up for all infringements like knock on's, offside's etc the game would never get going. The advantage rule sometimes last's minutes its unbelieveable. I think the main point is field position I guess. I watched the Eng v Wales game and out of the 53 points, just 10 were from tries, so I guess that says it all. Any help in understanding would be appreciated !!!

Re: Rugby Union World Cup : Tue Sep 29, 2015 2:24 pm  

The legend that is Laurie Daley can answer your question

“Rugby League is a simple game, played by simple people, Rugby Union is a complex game played by Wankers”

Personally, I can watch, and enjoy both games, but I don't compare the 2 codes. People don't compare 'Polo' with 'Water Polo'

Re: Rugby Union World Cup : Tue Sep 29, 2015 2:30 pm  

How I see it, is it's a game aimed at minimising risk.

Pick up a grubber in your in-goal, you can ground it and get the ball back instead of running it out.
Ball caught in your 22, call mark, slow the play down and give it a 40-yard boot.
Ball caught by a back outside of 22, don't run it back in or try to evade, get it kicked.
Flowing passing move off the back of a ruck becomes a tip on to a prop for a 1yard gain.

It's very much a team game, which stifles individual play. It promotes winning penalties, with little reward for tries.

It's pi$$ poor to us as our sport promotes the core principles of rugby, rather than set pieces & complicated team moves. Their players are specialists, who have a very specific job to do, which is often not very pretty (to us).

Chess & Checkers is a great analogy. In chess (union), every piece has a specific move it can carry out, the game is complex and quite boring. Checkers (League), every piece is the same, it's fast, better to watch and simple.


Why is it more popular? Money, media, demographic, marketing, more participants.

Re: Rugby Union World Cup : Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:11 pm  

Chess and checkers is not a good analogy. It implies RU is complex, and league simple, and neither is the case. The off the ball movement, lines of running, structure of play in attack and defence, actions in contact (for both ball carriers and tacklers) are all complex elements of the sport. If you don't understand the sport, then it may well look as much like a game of British bulldog, and RU looks like kick tennis + pileon for those than don't understand it.

Re: Rugby Union World Cup : Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:43 pm  

Richie wrote:

Chess and checkers is not a good analogy. It implies RU is complex, and league simple, and neither is the case. The off the ball movement, lines of running, structure of play in attack and defence, actions in contact (for both ball carriers and tacklers) are all complex elements of the sport. If you don't understand the sport, then it may well look as much like a game of British bulldog, and RU looks like kick tennis + pileon for those than don't understand it.

Chess is a good analogy, but like most analogies has its limitations.

Both League and Union have complexities. However, many of the league complexities are transferrable to union but not the other way round.

One of the sayings I like is that Union is a contest for the ball and League is a contest with the ball.

The main difference for me is that in League if you have the ball you are safe (relatively). Its a game of possession. For union, its a game of territory. In possession or not you can score from anywhere in the opposition half, and can concede from anywhere in your own half.

Re: Rugby Union World Cup : Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:49 pm  

I'd agree with Richie, having played both sports albeit at a relatively low level.

They're not really that much different. The core principles of the game are the same - you run, catch, pass and tackle with the aim of getting the ball over your opponent's line without them doing the same to you.

The main difference is how much you're allowed to compete for the ball once your opponent has it, which necessarily has laws around it to make it a fair contest that teams are constantly pushing to see how much they can get away with. If anything Union carries a greater degree of unpredictability, because every time a team carries the ball into contact there's a real risk they are going to lose it either by getting turned over or giving away a penalty.

It's not that long ago in the grand scheme of things that kicking duels between full-backs were the done thing in League. I can remember the game going through a spell in the early 80s when they came back into fashion, as teams sought to win the field position battle by forcing errors. It's also not that long ago that games of League were finishing either tryless or with a handful of scores (wasn't there a 4-2 Grand Final in Australia mid 80s?), so it's not like we've always been a high-scoring, fast paced sport by comparison.

IMO there's a lot of inherent negativity towards Union from League fans that comes from history, rather than what is presented in front of them. They sit down to watch the sport with the intention of finding faults in it, in the same way someone who is anti-League might sit down and wonder why they just keep bashing into each other then hoofing it up in the air on the last tackle. If you enjoy watching League then I'd recommend taking in some Super 15 rugby from the southern hemisphere, where the emphasis is less on kicking and more on moving the ball either out of or before contact than it is in the northern hemisphere.

That said, I'll still never get my head around why a rolling maul can't be obstruction when you've got no chance of getting to the bloke with the ball at the back...

Re: Rugby Union World Cup : Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:50 pm  

Andy Gilder wrote:

I'd agree with Richie, having played both sports albeit at a relatively low level.

They're not really that much different. The core principles of the game are the same - you run, catch, pass and tackle with the aim of getting the ball over your opponent's line without them doing the same to you.

The main difference is how much you're allowed to compete for the ball once your opponent has it, which necessarily has laws around it to make it a fair contest that teams are constantly pushing to see how much they can get away with. If anything Union carries a greater degree of unpredictability, because every time a team carries the ball into contact there's a real risk they are going to lose it either by getting turned over or giving away a penalty.

It's not that long ago in the grand scheme of things that kicking duels between full-backs were the done thing in League. I can remember the game going through a spell in the early 80s when they came back into fashion, as teams sought to win the field position battle by forcing errors. It's also not that long ago that games of League were finishing either tryless or with a handful of scores (wasn't there a 4-2 Grand Final in Australia mid 80s?), so it's not like we've always been a high-scoring, fast paced sport by comparison.

IMO there's a lot of inherent negativity towards Union from League fans that comes from history, rather than what is presented in front of them. They sit down to watch the sport with the intention of finding faults in it, in the same way someone who is anti-League might sit down and wonder why they just keep bashing into each other then hoofing it up in the air on the last tackle. If you enjoy watching League then I'd recommend taking in some Super 15 rugby from the southern hemisphere, where the emphasis is less on kicking and more on moving the ball either out of or before contact than it is in the northern hemisphere.

That said, I'll still never get my head around why a rolling maul can't be obstruction when you've got no chance of getting to the bloke with the ball at the back...

Fully agree. I have many memories of long kicking duals in league in the 60s which made most of the players from both sides off side and so they had to wait for either one of the kickers to make an error or put them onside.

The rolling maul used to be called a loose scrum but the players had to stay bound with less of the peeling off allowed.

Re: Rugby Union World Cup : Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:47 pm  

Andy Gilder wrote:

I'd agree with Richie, having played both sports albeit at a relatively low level.

They're not really that much different. The core principles of the game are the same - you run, catch, pass and tackle with the aim of getting the ball over your opponent's line without them doing the same to you.

The main difference is how much you're allowed to compete for the ball once your opponent has it, which necessarily has laws around it to make it a fair contest that teams are constantly pushing to see how much they can get away with. If anything Union carries a greater degree of unpredictability, because every time a team carries the ball into contact there's a real risk they are going to lose it either by getting turned over or giving away a penalty.

It's not that long ago in the grand scheme of things that kicking duels between full-backs were the done thing in League. I can remember the game going through a spell in the early 80s when they came back into fashion, as teams sought to win the field position battle by forcing errors. It's also not that long ago that games of League were finishing either tryless or with a handful of scores (wasn't there a 4-2 Grand Final in Australia mid 80s?), so it's not like we've always been a high-scoring, fast paced sport by comparison.

IMO there's a lot of inherent negativity towards Union from League fans that comes from history, rather than what is presented in front of them. They sit down to watch the sport with the intention of finding faults in it, in the same way someone who is anti-League might sit down and wonder why they just keep bashing into each other then hoofing it up in the air on the last tackle. If you enjoy watching League then I'd recommend taking in some Super 15 rugby from the southern hemisphere, where the emphasis is less on kicking and more on moving the ball either out of or before contact than it is in the northern hemisphere.

That said, I'll still never get my head around why a rolling maul can't be obstruction when you've got no chance of getting to the bloke with the ball at the back...

Not certain they're that close. I've spent a fair bit of time launching people into the sky and getting my head wedged into people's arses and all it served to do was make me love rugby league all the more. Rather uniquely for a back row/second row at union I'm also a handy goal kicker which flies in the face of their conventions.
The amount of time consumed by lineouts and scrums are what make our games polar opposites.
And a code which can't utilise an athlete like Sam Burgess can't be worth watching.

Re: Rugby Union World Cup : Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:08 pm  

The main difference between the two sports, which contributed heavily to how the game is played, is that in Union you are capable of conceding points when in possession, whereas in league it's rare to unheard of.
So, in Union you want to be away from your own posts even when you have the ball.
There are other differences because there are set piece contests that dictate a certain body shape amongst forwards but I don't think they are major.
Personally I think league is the more complex game at top level, support play is on a different level for example.

Re: Rugby Union World Cup : Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:36 pm  

My problem with Union is that League has spoilt me. I find it too frustrating and too similar. I get that scrummaging and line outs are skills, but its also frustrating to watch some of the ball handling skills of the more set piece specialists which would be unforgivable in league, i get that kicking the ball and going in to contact are tactical choices, but seeing a chubby guy go into contact instead of going through what in league would be a gaping hole is frustrating, or not taking advantage of broken fields and a run up on kick returns is frustrating.

The amount of kicked penalties looks to me a lack of confidence in the ability of players to execute 'rugby skills'. England may have 'lost' because they went for the try on that final penalty, but they had 5 penalties they kicked before that. Why go for the try with 3 minutes left when you didnt have the confidence to get over from 20 yards for the other 77 minutes? Especially with the size of the ingoal areas and how RU defend kicks to the corner. The lack of dummy runs, set plays, and support play just seems criminal. Even something as simple as a player picking a line to hit a gap seems alien.