Re: Getting left behind? : Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:34 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

You cannot ignore the losses to Saints, Wigan - what is your excuse for that? and the shocking performance against Catalans again how do you explain that other than the team wasn't good enough - I don't buy into the CC it was a distant memory by then.

I'm not ignoring those losses. The Saints one, well bit of a tricky one to be overally critical on as we went with 12 men for 60 mins and they only just scraped past us. Wigan, we lost comfortably away to them, they lost comfortably away to us. I know we weren't good enough against Catalans but that's one playoff game it happens, it happened to the 2006 team, I thought the talk was about how we'd get on as a whole for a league season next year......I'm not ignoring losses, yet some are ignoring the wins we managed to pick up this year too.

Re: Getting left behind? : Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:49 pm  

ThePrinter wrote:

I'm not ignoring those losses. The Saints one, well bit of a tricky one to be overally critical on as we went with 12 men for 60 mins and they only just scraped past us. Wigan, we lost comfortably away to them, they lost comfortably away to us. I know we weren't good enough against Catalans but that's one playoff game it happens, it happened to the 2006 team, I thought the talk was about how we'd get on as a whole for a league season next year......I'm not ignoring losses, yet some are ignoring the wins we managed to pick up this year too.

We lost twice to a very weakened Saints side, Wigan beat us twice - you appear to have overlooked the magic weekend? The talk is can this side still cut - based on the second half of 2014 it is doubtful. I cannot see any tangible evidence that this side can still challenge the top sides in the league.

Re: Getting left behind? : Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:06 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

We lost twice to a very weakened Saints side, Wigan beat us twice - you appear to have overlooked the magic weekend? The talk is can this side still cut - based on the second half of 2014 it is doubtful. I cannot see any tangible evidence that this side can still challenge the top sides in the league.

So you basing it on the 2nd half of the season.....yet want to include the losses to Saints and Wigan from the first half of the season? Which is it?

Not overlooking any loss, I've quite happily talked about the defeats we've suffered this year AS WELL as the wins we've had......it's the people who think we won't make top 4 next year that have only mentioned losses whilst ignoring the wins.

Why is that? Why are people ignoring the fact that we've also been capable of beating every team in 2014 barring Hudds (which we were a drop-goal against the post away from beating)? My view isn't overlooking/ignoring anything, it's actually basing it on the full season.....and I admit there is a good chunk of bad in there so I can understand why some think we'll be outside the top 4 next year......but perhaps some others should try practise what they preach and not ignore games (namely any game we didn't lose) when coming to their conclusions.

Re: Getting left behind? : Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:44 am  

ThePrinter wrote:

So you basing it on the 2nd half of the season.....yet want to include the losses to Saints and Wigan from the first half of the season? Which is it?

Not overlooking any loss, I've quite happily talked about the defeats we've suffered this year AS WELL as the wins we've had......it's the people who think we won't make top 4 next year that have only mentioned losses whilst ignoring the wins.

Why is that? Why are people ignoring the fact that we've also been capable of beating every team in 2014 barring Hudds (which we were a drop-goal against the post away from beating)? My view isn't overlooking/ignoring anything, it's actually basing it on the full season.....and I admit there is a good chunk of bad in there so I can understand why some think we'll be outside the top 4 next year......but perhaps some others should try practise what they preach and not ignore games (namely any game we didn't lose) when coming to their conclusions.

The point of mentioning the Magic game is that it was week 13 so half way and it was when things started to go down hill - Wigan's depleted team simply beat the crap and the confidence out of them. They were never the same team again after that.

The point about the second half of the season is that is the most up to date evidence we have of how the team is going. Since the Magic weekend they had wins against: Catalans (very lucky), Hull, Widnes, Hull KR and Salford hardly confidence boosting stuff. Catalans apart they didn't beat a top side since the Magic weekend.

The CC is an excuse in my opinion, the beat Saints late April so between May and August they played 1 game in the CC which was against a non SL side. So as a distraction it should not have been even a consideration for an elite professional player.

We still have the conundrum of why they played so badly when it really mattered against the Catalans? 2006 the team was sick of Smith and didn't want to play for him. Early 2007 was equally bad it was only after Smith announced his departure that things started to improve.

I am struggling to see why many on here think the top 4 is a mere formality - it is difficult to argue that the team is ageing and in decline other teams have strengthened and - in some cases - have better youth structures in place.

Re: Getting left behind? : Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:48 am  

The crux of the matter for me is this year (and probably a couple of seasons before that) we've been more consistently average/poor than we have been consistently good. Yes they've definitely been playing the system to an extent, but our best is no longer miles ahead of the others, and naturally as our roster has aged, it's harder for them to put a string of top performances together.

Next year we've only brought in Cuthbo (who should be decent), and the squad is year older - so to me it's clear we're going backwards. If we'd blooded lots of youngsters who were ready to go full tilt next year, it wouldn't be so much of an issue, but in reality there's only really Sutcliffe who's been afforded anything like regular minutes.

Re: Getting left behind? : Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:10 am  

ThePrinter wrote:

So you basing it on the 2nd half of the season.....yet want to include the losses to Saints and Wigan from the first half of the season? Which is it?

Not overlooking any loss, I've quite happily talked about the defeats we've suffered this year AS WELL as the wins we've had......it's the people who think we won't make top 4 next year that have only mentioned losses whilst ignoring the wins.

Why is that? Why are people ignoring the fact that we've also been capable of beating every team in 2014 barring Hudds (which we were a drop-goal against the post away from beating)? My view isn't overlooking/ignoring anything, it's actually basing it on the full season.....and I admit there is a good chunk of bad in there so I can understand why some think we'll be outside the top 4 next year......but perhaps some others should try practise what they preach and not ignore games (namely any game we didn't lose) when coming to their conclusions.

Here's the thing, though. It's the order in which those wins and losses occurred that bothers me more than the overall number of wins and losses (although that wasn't too awesome, given that we finished sixth). The mantra has always been (because it's usually been true) that this great team always comes good when it counts. It's pretty hard to reconcile "coming good when it counts" with the feeble form we showed at the end of last season. We actually "came good" in February, March and April this year.

Re: Getting left behind? : Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:38 am  

People talk about the Bradford and London games but the ones that sit with me are Saints away and at home. When we played them away we were in good form and playing a weakened team. But their youth and enthusiasm did our very poor tactics of playing up the middle. That seemed to be the end of our flowing rugby. Then the game at home worked out well for McD. Again, they were there for the taking. But Moon's sending off gave McD a 're out of jail free car's. We played e game with 14 men which was diabolical - and because the coach 'didn't think feel the need' to play 2 of our bench.

I can imagine our leaders getting the team up for the big games, but tactically our coach is well off. When teams work out our game plan, he can't seem to react.

A good coach looks at his team and plays the best way for the personnel. Looking at our team it's the backline that is strongest but he continued to try and win a forward battle we struggled to do.

The biggest signing for me this off season won't be on the playing side, but an assistant who can bring attacking structure and challenge Brian.

Re: Getting left behind? : Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:54 am  

We also played against very weakened sides against Wigan at Magic, and against Warrington at their place. Lost them both.

Re: Getting left behind? : Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:01 am  

ThePrinter wrote:

Why is that? Why are people ignoring the fact that we've also been capable of beating every team in 2014 barring Hudds (which we were a drop-goal against the post away from beating)? My view isn't overlooking/ignoring anything, it's actually basing it on the full season.....and I admit there is a good chunk of bad in there so I can understand why some think we'll be outside the top 4 next year......but perhaps some others should try practise what they preach and not ignore games (namely any game we didn't lose) when coming to their conclusions.

The team fell short on a number of occasions. Do you imagine that when GH and Brian review the season that fact won't be at the forefront of their minds? It's only natural that many fans consider matters in identical fashion.

Re: Getting left behind? : Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:35 am  

Part of the 'problem' IMO is what seems an ever increasing over reliance on the 'grinding tactics'

These can work in poor conditions and have served us well on damp October nights in Manchester but this season especially we seem to have relied on this tactic more and more in all conditions.

The problem with the 'grind' is that it doesn't blow teams away, unless the grind wears down and tires the other team out so that you can then up the gears and get the rewards by scoring the points later on.

This season we haven't been capable of going up the gears often enough and the problem with that is the tactics keep the game tight and therefore the other team is kept in the game longer therefore fatigue doesn't come into it as much as if the game is kept close and tight the opposition retains their enthusiasm and confidence etc for longer.

There have been so many games this year that we've lost towards the end where we've only started throwing stuff at the opposition when going behind late on and haven't managed to real them in as by then the opposition have 'grown a 3rd leg' through keeping in the wrestle with us and then taking the lead late on and we then try and hit them with our 'off the cuff' style.

We have an awesome looking back line on paper but don't seem to have either the tactics or half backs to be able to utilise them to their maximum potential which is very frustrating to watch.