Re: Getting left behind? : Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:39 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

The arrogance is the "Leeds will make the top 4 no problem" as if all they have to do is turn up.

All the key players have to stay fit - that is very unlikely to happen in a high collision sport and a team of ageing players who have begun to show physical frailties.

We don't have great depth nor do we have a raft of youngsters pushing for inclusion especially in the backs and the halves.

Last season when Leeds were asked to step up they couldn't do it - what is to suggest next season will be any different?

They have consistently failed to beat the top sides given most have strengthen and Leeds - on paper at least - are weaker how do you propose that will improve? No way that Leeds would have "tossed it off" against the likes of Wigan, Saints, Warrington and Huddersfield.

Of course i don't think they just have to turn up to win, However maybe the Leeds team themselves have thought that in recent years as evidenced at the back end of this season with the 2 losses to the dross at the bottom of the table.

Obviously we are not the team we were but the top end of SL is not what it was either.There is no real stand out team, and the top teams will more than likely take points off of each other.There is no side in SL this current 17 that we have is not capable of beating imo and the new format will force them to be more consistent if they want to figure in the SL Playoffs.No big time CC focus next year (expect us to bomb out early) and one last big shot at the title for a few of the team.

We will see, but i think a few on here a getting depressed a season too early.

Re: Getting left behind? : Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:42 am  

El Diablo wrote:

The "tossing it off" line is a bit worn. I don't believe we've ever "tossed it off", though I am fairly sure that training intensity will have been staged and managed to allow us to peak at particular times. Fairly basic sports science would suggest that if you want to be at maximum functional fitness in August-October then you probably need to spend quite a lot of June and July training at a higher intensity than is ideal for preparing for June and July's matches. That isn't the same (the opposite in fact) as tossing it off.

The rather noticeable difference between last year and other years with an almost indentical cup run (same number of matches, albeit different outcome) was that we were totally unable to lift again in September. In 2011 and 2012 we went all the way to Wembley in the CC, and then bounced back to finish the season incredibly strongly (also true to a degree in 2010, where despite a lack of form we ended up winning at Wigan and losing the semi final re-match in a match that was actually closer than the scoreline suggested).

The 2010, '11, '12 model does not apply to 2014, where we were not able to peak when it mattered. Unless we think the last couple of rounds and the play-offs don't matter.

So, do we interpret the 2014 Challenge Cup as a sort of last hurrah for a genuinely great group of players? Dunno. I do know that it is likely the squad we're going with next season, so it has to do better in the league.

I agree then termanology of "tossing it off" isn't quite correct but it's the one people use and recognise on here.

They were some differences between 2011 and 2012 and what happened in 2014 regarding the CC. Those other years we started slowly and we're playing catchup from around 8th, 9th place so had to really start picking up wins in the period just before the CC semis/finals. This year it was opposite, we appeared to have enough in the bag for a top 4 finish. Also I suppose when the lose the thing it does give you the desire to make amends in the playoffs compared to winning the cup.

Like I said before, don't think we are capable of pushing for both with this squad. An early cup exit please.

Re: Getting left behind? : Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:44 am  

ThePrinter wrote:

It's not scraping the barrel it's just pointing out how things happened from another view. This team that wasn't good enough to beat the likes of Bradford and London and Wakey also managed to beat Wire and Cas in knockout games around the same time so of course the players focus has to be more in question than ability?

Whilst some don't like it you can't downplay the significance of the CC.

Had Saints beat us in Round 5 and Wigan beat Cas in then quarters do you still think those two teams finish top 2? Do you think Cas stumble at the last hurdle without a cup semi and final to prepare for? Do you think we pick the same line-ups vs Bradford and London that cost us a top 2 spot?

The team that beat Wire and Cas in knockout matches wasn't the same as the ones that lost to Bradford and London.

We may well have finished higher up the table without the distraction of the CC. Yet for all that, when it did count (which is the crux of this argument) and there were no distractions left, we couldn't get the job done against the Dragons, at home.

As for Saints and Wigan, I'm not sure why I am to believe that they couldn't manage a cup run and a strong finish in the league. We'll never know. How much more banged up could the Saints squad have got, really?

Cas ran out of steam, and also failed (in the tradition of Hudds) to cope when the intensity went up, first in the CC final (see Hudds 2006, 2009 and every play-off series) and then at the business end. Would they have coped with the higher intensity were it not for a cup run? We'll never know. I doubt it, personally.

Re: Getting left behind? : Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:47 am  

El Diablo wrote:

The "tossing it off" line is a bit worn. I don't believe we've ever "tossed it off", though I am fairly sure that training intensity will have been staged and managed to allow us to peak at particular times. Fairly basic sports science would suggest that if you want to be at maximum functional fitness in August-October then you probably need to spend quite a lot of June and July training at a higher intensity than is ideal for preparing for June and July's matches. That isn't the same (the opposite in fact) as tossing it off.

The rather noticeable difference between last year and other years with an almost indentical cup run (same number of matches, albeit different outcome) was that we were totally unable to lift again in September. In 2011 and 2012 we went all the way to Wembley in the CC, and then bounced back to finish the season incredibly strongly (also true to a degree in 2010, where despite a lack of form we ended up winning at Wigan and losing the semi final re-match in a match that was actually closer than the scoreline suggested).

The 2010, '11, '12 model does not apply to 2014, where we were not able to peak when it mattered. Unless we think the last couple of rounds and the play-offs don't matter.

So, do we interpret the 2014 Challenge Cup as a sort of last hurrah for a genuinely great group of players? Dunno. I do know that it is likely the squad we're going with next season, so it has to do better in the league.

A fair summary.

It is several years since the core of the side passed their peak and so with every year that passes (without the addition of real class recruits) we must as a side be regressing and achieving success becomes that much more difficult as each year passes. Our aging quality players still have something to offer and with the CC finally won we can plan for a more consistent league campaign next season. However my concern is for the limited quality of the bench players and reserves some of whom are either no longer up to top 4 level or with abilities not yet proven at this level.

Our attack certainly misses Web who provided a pivotol link that Hardaker has been unable to replace. This is one of the reasons our backs did not fulfilled their promise this year. Other reasons were an out of sorts Sinfield at 6 and a lack of impact from the bench. Time for Bailey and Kirke to be moved on and it would be great to sign a class halfback but from where?

Re: Getting left behind? : Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:47 am  

FearTheVee wrote:

I think Leeds need a couple of new players in the pack and some fresh blood in the halves to be back at the top.

I'll be delighted to see them go with what they currently have for 2015.

It is what we have needed really for the past year or two and the fact that we all know that without Kylie and to a greater extent JP that we have virtually nothing in reserve and they both retire at the end of next season, that things look quite bleak on the horizon. Hopefully Cuthbertson turns out to be a good un' but who knows? there have been a fair few dud props come over with decent reps in recent times, Perry (as you know),Cross,Pettybourne and Asotasi spring to mind.

Re: Getting left behind? : Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:11 pm  

ThePrinter wrote:

It's not scraping the barrel it's just pointing out how things happened from another view. This team that wasn't good enough to beat the likes of Bradford and London and Wakey also managed to beat Wire and Cas in knockout games around the same time so of course the players focus has to be more in question than ability?

Whilst some don't like it you can't downplay the significance of the CC.

Had Saints beat us in Round 5 and Wigan beat Cas in then quarters do you still think those two teams finish top 2? Do you think Cas stumble at the last hurdle without a cup semi and final to prepare for? Do you think we pick the same line-ups vs Bradford and London that cost us a top 2 spot?

You cannot ignore the losses to Saints, Wigan - what is your excuse for that? and the shocking performance against Catalans again how do you explain that other than the team wasn't good enough - I don't buy into the CC it was a distant memory by then.

Re: Getting left behind? : Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:25 pm  

There is also the aura of invincibility that Leeds had - teams didn't believe they could beat them when it really mattered in a one off game. That myth is well and truly gone these days.

Re: Getting left behind? : Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:31 pm  

Against the five teams above them in the league ladder for 2014:

Saints - one convincing win, two narrow defeats
Wigan - one convincing win, one narrow defeat, one convincing defeat
Huddersfield - one draw, one narrow defeat
Castleford - two wins (both fairly convincing) and a draw
Warrington - one convincing win, one narrow win, one convincing defeat

For a team that "wasn't good enough", Leeds did pretty well against the sides above them. Arguably better than they did in 2011 and 2012 in terms of win-loss record.

Re: Getting left behind? : Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:02 pm  

Andy Gilder wrote:

Against the five teams above them in the league ladder for 2014:

Saints - one convincing win, two narrow defeats
Wigan - one convincing win, one narrow defeat, one convincing defeat
Huddersfield - one draw, one narrow defeat
Castleford - two wins (both fairly convincing) and a draw
Warrington - one convincing win, one narrow win, one convincing defeat

For a team that "wasn't good enough", Leeds did pretty well against the sides above them. Arguably better than they did in 2011 and 2012 in terms of win-loss record.

Lies, damned lies and statistics. In almost all cases, the better results were at the start of the season. As has been well documented, the '11 and '12 vintage got the job done when it counted. The '14 incarnation did not.

Re: Getting left behind? : Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:35 pm  

Leeds were looking up till the magic weekend game.After they beat Wigan convincingly Wane went away and worked out a game plan and it worked.Apart from the cup games we never looked the same.It is a dilemma for the management though do we move certain players on and I am not talking about Kirke and Bailey here I mean further up the order,do we move on stars from the 'golden generation'and bring in players who will just fill in till we find players of the 2004 2009 calibre?
Gary has a big job on his hands