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Re: General Election campaign
Post Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:28 pm
Posted by wrencat1873 on Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:28 pm
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Sal Paradise wrote:
I don't disagree with you but simply increasing funding and simply increasing the salaries of existing personnel will not solve the problem of dealing with a 16 year that threatens to kill themselves. What is difficult for people in the private sector who have also not had increases is for them to pay in more from a static salary to allow others to see their remuneration increase significantly?

The NHS is the biggest employer in Europe and any organisation of that size with have inefficiencies so streamlining is possible but as part of the funding debate. What do you want the NHS to provide - all things to all people when they want it? If so then you better double the amount that goes in and more. You would need significant increase in IT which would create issues of working people not being able to repay their mortgages.

I agree staff turnover is very expensive but as the population grows, demands increase existing personnel retire more professionals are required greater infrastructure is also required. Just increasing salaries is not the only solution surely?


First of all, it's wholly reasonable for staff within the NHS to see their salaries increase in line with those in the private sector and whilst some in the private sector have seen salaries rise at a slow rate or be stagnant, very, very few have seen a freeze on their wages for 10 years - I know that you may be able to cherry pick a couple of examples but, the freeze accross the public sector was accross the board.

You are right to ask what people expect from the NHS, which has been the political elephant in the room for many may years.

However, specifically on the subject which triggered this debate, there has been a backdrop of pretence by the Tory government that mental health spending would increase.
There was direct input from Cameron on this subject and we've even had the "popular" members of the Royal Family chipping their two pennarth in as well and yet, the reality just doesn't match the pledges and promises of the current government - not even close

During this thread you have gone from bemoaning finite resources to trying to tell us that people ARE being well treated and while I'm sure that there are some happy "customers", the political rhetoric has not been matched by investment or action and certainly not by adequate treatment for those most in need.
Re: General Election campaign
Post Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:08 pm
Posted by Sal Paradise on Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:08 pm
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wrencat1873 wrote:
First of all, it's wholly reasonable for staff within the NHS to see their salaries increase in line with those in the private sector and whilst some in the private sector have seen salaries rise at a slow rate or be stagnant, very, very few have seen a freeze on their wages for 10 years - I know that you may be able to cherry pick a couple of examples but, the freeze accross the public sector was accross the board.

You are right to ask what people expect from the NHS, which has been the political elephant in the room for many may years.

However, specifically on the subject which triggered this debate, there has been a backdrop of pretence by the Tory government that mental health spending would increase.
There was direct input from Cameron on this subject and we've even had the "popular" members of the Royal Family chipping their two pennarth in as well and yet, the reality just doesn't match the pledges and promises of the current government - not even close

During this thread you have gone from bemoaning finite resources to trying to tell us that people ARE being well treated and while I'm sure that there are some happy "customers", the political rhetoric has not been matched by investment or action and certainly not by adequate treatment for those most in need.


I think you will find there are millions of people who think the treatment they have received at the hands of the NHS - you will always find some people and even a small % of the patients treated by the NHS is s significant number that are dissatisfied.

Spending on the NHS has gone up by £20bn since 2010 - so overall spending has seen an increase so unless the spending on mental health has remained stagnant or not increased in line with the overall spending then its an allocation of finite resources issue? There is another £20bn promised over the next 4 years - where do stop without bankrupting the country. This is after all the real world not the Corbyn/McDonald fantasy one. Perhaps more of these increases need diverting to mental health treatment rather than other clinical areas?

I am not arguing that the health professionals are not deserving of more money - the staff haven't had a freeze since 2013 the increases have been small but consistent and the new offering is higher still in % terms.
Your job is to say to yourself on a job interview does the hiring manager likes me or not. If you aren't a particular manager's cup of tea, you haven't failed -- you've dodged a bullet.
Re: General Election campaign
Post Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:35 pm
Posted by bren2k on Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:35 pm
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Sal Paradise wrote:
I don't disagree with you but simply increasing funding and simply increasing the salaries of existing personnel will not solve the problem of dealing with a 16 year that threatens to kill themselves.


So now you're on to my other specialist subject - social care - which would, at one time, have been available in the community to support people who were feeling distressed and putting themselves at risk; this would have included SureStart centres, one of Labour's greatest achievements - now mostly closed by the Tories; youth workers - mostly removed due to government cuts; social care staff in schools - mostly unaffordable now due to cuts in school funding; family support workers - virtually gone due to government cuts; social workers and CPN's - now working at absolute capacity on the most acute cases, and massively under-resourced.

See the Cinderella cause - social care - is often excluded from discussions about the NHS, but a properly funded social care system does huge amounts of the heavy lifting and often prevents people having to access primary care at all - thus relieving the burden on the NHS. Our lovely, compassionate Tory government however, knowing full well that this is the case, announces extra £billions going into social care, without telling you that they've actually taken it from the NHS budget.

For context, since 2010, over £7 billion has been cut from the settlement to LA's to fund social care; and the King's Fund now estimates a £4.3 billion funding gap by 2010 - a small proportion of which might be funded by another Council Tax precept - wiping out the so-called increase to NMW in one fell swoop.

So I say again, if you or anyone you care about requires any kind of social care now or in the future, good luck, because they won't get anything like what they need. Harsh - but absolutely and without any doubt - true.
Re: General Election campaign
Post Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:08 pm
Posted by wrencat1873 on Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:08 pm
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Sal Paradise wrote:
I think you will find there are millions of people who think the treatment they have received at the hands of the NHS - you will always find some people and even a small % of the patients treated by the NHS is s significant number that are dissatisfied.

Spending on the NHS has gone up by £20bn since 2010 - so overall spending has seen an increase so unless the spending on mental health has remained stagnant or not increased in line with the overall spending then its an allocation of finite resources issue? There is another £20bn promised over the next 4 years - where do stop without bankrupting the country. This is after all the real world not the Corbyn/McDonald fantasy one. Perhaps more of these increases need diverting to mental health treatment rather than other clinical areas?

I am not arguing that the health professionals are not deserving of more money - the staff haven't had a freeze since 2013 the increases have been small but consistent and the new offering is higher still in % terms.


Let's not change the argument with diversion tactics and the "millions of satisfied customers" whitewash.

We were talking specifically about mental health.
Something that you clearly know very little about and unfortunately, I actually do.

I'm certainly not knocking the NHS, where I personally have always received excellent treatment, albeit on very few occasions as I have to date, been lucky with my own health and I dont blame The NHS for their shortcomings in the area of mental health.

Spending over a long enough period has been cut in this area, along with many services that may have helped indirectly in the wellbeing of the general public.

You can triumphantly point towards recent increases in spending and the promises of more to come from Boris - although he's not too good at keeping those.

However, the point STILL remains, that, care accross the board, has been butchered and the result of this is old people "clogging up" hospital wards because it's "unsafe" for them to leave hospital and certain sectors of the community being badly let down.

Of course there are finite resources but, prior to Boris's very recent promises of billions for this, that and the other. None of which, even a fool would believe, the Tories have delighted in slashing public services in the name of austerity but, they still prioritise tax cuts for higher earners, rather than repair some of the damage caused by 10 years of swingeing cuts.

It's strange now that Boris wants to win the forthcoming election, that he has suddenly managed to make spending pledges in excess of £50 billion, although, we have yet to see him part with a penny.
Re: General Election campaign
Post Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:51 am
Posted by Ovavoo on Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:51 am
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General election before Christmas, praying that the Tories get sn@tted.
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Re: General Election campaign
Post Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:11 pm
Posted by IR80 on Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:11 pm
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Ovavoo wrote:
General election before Christmas, praying that the Tories get sn@tted.

We wont, we'll get a majority and Labour will be consigned to the shadows.
Re: General Election campaign
Post Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:26 pm
Posted by Cronus on Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:26 pm
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Ovavoo wrote:
General election before Christmas, praying that the Tories get sn@tted.

The Tories will win the most seats as long as they don't decide this is a good time to roll out unpopular policies like they did in 2017, and as long as Corbyn carries on looking so ridiculous by being all shouty and fake happy smiley. He looked embarrassingly uncomfortable and out of character today.

The Brexit Party and UKIP should realise they're not going to achieve a no deal outcome and probably won't win any seats, and by contesting Tory seats and splitting the leave vote they are only increasing the likelihood of a second referendum. Their best move would be to stand aside and support Boris.

Labour, the Lib Dems and the Greens can fight over the remain vote.
Re: General Election campaign
Post Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:58 pm
Posted by The Ghost of '99 on Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:58 pm
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Looking at it logically, where will the Tories win the seats they'll need to to offset losses elsewhere - it is highly likely they are going to lose seats in Scotland, the South West and London so will need to more than compensate by gains in the Midlands and the north. If the polls remain as they are that's possible, if the lead dips a bit it starts to become more difficult because you're having to win seats that are historically very resistant to Tory charms.

They will be hoping to make it all about Brexit but if it flips to domestic policies they will be harder pressed because the country doesn't typically favour that many of the Conservatives' policies.
"Brian McDermott, with a wry smile, nods when asked if he remembers a specific incident which made him realise he was a prick. 'I do', he murmurs."
Re: General Election campaign
Post Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:00 am
Posted by IR80 on Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:00 am
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The Ghost of '99 wrote:
Looking at it logically, where will the Tories win the seats they'll need to to offset losses elsewhere - it is highly likely they are going to lose seats in Scotland, the South West and London so will need to more than compensate by gains in the Midlands and the north. If the polls remain as they are that's possible, if the lead dips a bit it starts to become more difficult because you're having to win seats that are historically very resistant to Tory charms.

They will be hoping to make it all about Brexit but if it flips to domestic policies they will be harder pressed because the country doesn't typically favour that many of the Conservatives' policies.

Says your jaundiced straw polling?
Re: General Election campaign
Post Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:51 pm
Posted by The Ghost of '99 on Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:51 pm
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IR80 wrote:
Says your jaundiced straw polling?

Says anyone who knows anything about the detail of British politics. I understand this probably wouldn't include you.
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