Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:26 am  

Superblue wrote:

You just lost the debate there with that one, and lost your remaining credibility

So I can be called dim and I am the one losing credibility?

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:45 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

You may be right but, Boris, instead of allowing scrutiny of a bill that he hailed as being "a new deal" and then the Tory Grandees have tried to say that it doesn't need debate as its the same as Mays deal.

The very fact that he has drawn a border down the Irish Sea, something that he had previously stated that he would never do, is reason enough to scrutinise and debate his deal.
He is losing the plot and resorting to child like threats to try and get his way.
Instead of trying to stifle debate, he should have been confident enough to sell his deal to Parliament.
Of course it would still be difficult to get through but, the guy in charge of the new "wanabe" independent UK, seems frightened of scrutiny and with some of his recent stunts and threats, the opposition are 100% right not to trust his word.

Boris is frustrated like the rest of us - MPs simply do not want to deliver an exit and they have shown their hand many times - from the SNP and Libdems who will never vote for a exit - debate it for another year and you will get the same outcome from them. The speaker who is supposed to be independent is anything but, Letwin and his cronies in the Tory party have made amendments to make it impossible to deliver a deal to the Benn act that makes the PM have to crawl back to Junker et al and beg for an extension - no wonder he is doesn't want more scrutiny because scrutiny isn't about making a better bill its about political point scoring - let's face it we will not be leaving the EU with this parliamentary make up.

Labour said it would deliver the vote of the referendum - it has voted 4 times against a deal why should you ever believe a word that Corbyn et al say?

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:37 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Boris is frustrated like the rest of us - MPs simply do not want to deliver an exit and they have shown their hand many times - from the SNP and Libdems who will never vote for a exit - debate it for another year and you will get the same outcome from them. The speaker who is supposed to be independent is anything but, Letwin and his cronies in the Tory party have made amendments to make it impossible to deliver a deal to the Benn act that makes the PM have to crawl back to Junker et al and beg for an extension - no wonder he is doesn't want more scrutiny because scrutiny isn't about making a better bill its about political point scoring - let's face it we will not be leaving the EU with this parliamentary make up.

Labour said it would deliver the vote of the referendum - it has voted 4 times against a deal why should you ever believe a word that Corbyn et al say?

Boris' actions are those of a petulant child.
Idle threats if he doesn't get his way are not the traits of any leader, let alone the leader of the UK, although "united" isn't something which applied the UK now.
Johnson has sacrificed N. Ireland and both Scotland and Wales want out.
Very soon we will indeed be a nation of Little Englanders, with the hand of Trump firmly up our collective backsides.

So much for "taking back control". We are effectively swapping the EU for the USA

And this is just hilarious "Labour said it would deliver the vote of the referendum - it has voted 4 times against a deal why should you ever believe a word that Corbyn et al say?"

If the Tories under May and Johnson had fully supported either deal, it would have made it through Parliament long ago.
You cant bemoan the opposition for opposing the government, especially when there was ZERO consultation cross party after the referendum.
Both May and Johnson have wanted to do things their own way and whilst this is their prerogative, they cant then complain about lack of opposition support.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:10 pm  

Sal will never get that there is no reason for Labour or any other party to vote for this hard Tory Brexit - it wasn't what was being pushed in the referendum campaign and it's certainly not got a mandate.
By simplifying it into voting against this deal as being voting against Brexit they get to muddy the waters and distract from how bad a deal this is (except for those looking to make a few more billions off the back of the poorest in society).

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:26 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Boris is frustrated like the rest of us - MPs simply do not want to deliver an exit and they have shown their hand many times - from the SNP and Libdems who will never vote for a exit - debate it for another year and you will get the same outcome from them. The speaker who is supposed to be independent is anything but, Letwin and his cronies in the Tory party have made amendments to make it impossible to deliver a deal to the Benn act that makes the PM have to crawl back to Junker et al and beg for an extension - no wonder he is doesn't want more scrutiny because scrutiny isn't about making a better bill its about political point scoring - let's face it we will not be leaving the EU with this parliamentary make up.

Labour said it would deliver the vote of the referendum - it has voted 4 times against a deal why should you ever believe a word that Corbyn et al say?

Boris' actions are those of a petulant child.
Idle threats if he doesn't get his way are not the traits of any leader, let alone the leader of the UK, although "united" isn't something which applied the UK now.
Johnson has sacrificed N. Ireland and both Scotland and Wales want out.
Very soon we will indeed be a nation of Little Englanders, with the hand of Trump firmly up our collective backsides.

So much for "taking back control". We are effectively swapping the EU for the USA

And this is just hilarious "Labour said it would deliver the vote of the referendum - it has voted 4 times against a deal why should you ever believe a word that Corbyn et al say?"

If the Tories under May and Johnson had fully supported either deal, it would have made it through Parliament long ago.
You cant bemoan the opposition for opposing the government, especially when there was ZERO consultation cross party after the referendum.
Both May and Johnson have wanted to do things their own way and whilst this is their prerogative, they cant then complain about lack of opposition support.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:01 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Boris' actions are those of a petulant child.
Idle threats if he doesn't get his way are not the traits of any leader, let alone the leader of the UK, although "united" isn't something which applied the UK now.
Johnson has sacrificed N. Ireland and both Scotland and Wales want out.
Very soon we will indeed be a nation of Little Englanders, with the hand of Trump firmly up our collective backsides.

So much for "taking back control". We are effectively swapping the EU for the USA

And this is just hilarious "Labour said it would deliver the vote of the referendum - it has voted 4 times against a deal why should you ever believe a word that Corbyn et al say?"

If the Tories under May and Johnson had fully supported either deal, it would have made it through Parliament long ago.
You cant bemoan the opposition for opposing the government, especially when there was ZERO consultation cross party after the referendum.
Both May and Johnson have wanted to do things their own way and whilst this is their prerogative, they cant then complain about lack of opposition support.

Boris is simply trying to get a version of Brexit done - if he had his way we would have left without a deal - even Blair says its the only way to break free of EU influence. Unfortunately Parliament has worked against him in anyway they deem possible. The deal he has is the best he could do to remove the backstop and regain some control over law making given that Parliament handed him a pretty grim hand

As has been mentioned on here plenty you cannot absolve Labour of obstructing an exit - we both know they don't want to leave it is now their policy - they want to negotiate a deal but advise everyone to vote against it - go figure. What good would consultation do with a party so wedded to the EU?

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:31 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Boris is simply trying to get a version of Brexit done - if he had his way we would have left without a deal - even Blair says its the only way to break free of EU influence. Unfortunately Parliament has worked against him in anyway they deem possible. The deal he has is the best he could do to remove the backstop and regain some control over law making given that Parliament handed him a pretty grim hand

As has been mentioned on here plenty you cannot absolve Labour of obstructing an exit - we both know they don't want to leave it is now their policy - they want to negotiate a deal but advise everyone to vote against it - go figure. What good would consultation do with a party so wedded to the EU?

If you don't consult, how can you know whether or not it would do any good?

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:25 pm  

Why don't they just deliver what they promised at Leave meetings and in the Brexit campaign. No money to the EU from the day we leave. Guaranteed Free Trade Deal and end to Free Movement. We would unquestionably be better off. Why don't they just deliver what they promised and 17.4m people voted for?

If we are not going to be better off then they can just forget it and we'll stay in.
I don't want to be worse off. Less money for me and my family, Less money for social provision NHS, Social care, Child Benefit, Pensions etc.
If the deal doesn't make us better off then just dump the whole Brexit idea and stay in the EU.
After all the last time we tried trading outside Europe it was an economic disaster. The "sick man of Europe" the UK used to be referred to.
If this bunch of useless ministers try to do anything they mess it up. This is a Government that when May took over from Cameron they had a majority of 12 now they're down to minority of -44.
The most incompetent Government in modern British politics. So just dump them and Brexit.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:07 am  

Father Ted wrote:

Why don't they just deliver what they promised and 17.4m people voted for?

Because 17.4m people didn't all vote for the same thing - which just highlights the facile stupidity of the whole project; it was *never* a simple yes or no question, and it should never have been framed that way. Because it was, both sides of the campaign resorted to big, headline grabbing statements about the outcome - most of which have proven to be completely untrue and unachievable - and created an atmosphere in which those people with a moderate view, on either side of the argument, are not even considered.

As for Sal and his claim that Labour are blocking Brexit - I think you'll find that if the new celebrity Tories such as Messrs Mogg, Francois and Bone, and indeed the already celebrity Tory Mr Johnson, had voted for Mrs May's deal, the Tories would by now have 'got Brexit done.' It is absolutely not the job of the opposition to help the Tories get their way in Parliament, if they consider that way to be harmful to the national interest - which this rotten deal clearly is, and will be for decades to come.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:29 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Boris is simply trying to get a version of Brexit done - if he had his way we would have left without a deal - even Blair says its the only way to break free of EU influence. Unfortunately Parliament has worked against him in anyway they deem possible. The deal he has is the best he could do to remove the backstop and regain some control over law making given that Parliament handed him a pretty grim hand

As has been mentioned on here plenty you cannot absolve Labour of obstructing an exit - we both know they don't want to leave it is now their policy - they want to negotiate a deal but advise everyone to vote against it - go figure. What good would consultation do with a party so wedded to the EU?

And if Phillip Hammond is to be believed and he's certainly more trustworthy than Johnson, May was offered the same deal as Boris 15 months ago, which she turned down and at the time, Boris said that a border down the Irish Sea would never be acceptable.
Surprise, surprise Boris "good time" Johnson has not only changed his mind but, proclaimed the deal as hard won and his own.

You realise that should the Tories win the next election, we will have the same class clown gambling all of our futures away.