Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:27 pm  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

Europeans are not the enemy, they are our trading partners.
People who want the best for the country but have opposing views to you are not traitors.
People who set out their own red lines should not be shot for treason.


I wonder what caused you to have this genuinely disturbing mentality and how deeply rooted it is amongst your fellow Brexiteers. Most grown adults don't talk and think like this.

Most normal people think it and a lot of supposed experts and well regarded journalists are suggesting the same - it is you who is so pro-remain that your views are so clouded you cannot see through your mental fog.

I am not saying the issue is the EU - they have negotiated in good faith - how do we repay that good faith parliament basically trashes all their effort - how can they ever trust the UK parliament?

When you have people who deliberately work against the country what would you call them - oh yes suffragetes Its all about personal heart!! You would applaud our own people who work for the other side e.g. Blunt, Burgess etc. Blair is no different to me - but he is top of your list!!

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:25 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Most normal people think it and a lot of supposed experts and well regarded journalists are suggesting the same - it is you who is so pro-remain that your views are so clouded you cannot see through your mental fog.

I am not saying the issue is the EU - they have negotiated in good faith - how do we repay that good faith parliament basically trashes all their effort - how can they ever trust the UK parliament?

When you have people who deliberately work against the country what would you call them - oh yes suffragetes Its all about personal heart!! You would applaud our own people who work for the other side e.g. Blunt, Burgess etc. Blair is no different to me - but he is top of your list!!

I'm worried that I have to share a stadium every week with someone who is so unhinged TBH.
But, for the billionth time, voting against a Tory Brexit bill with none of the red lines that a Labour Brexit bill would have included does not make a Labour MP a traitor. This sort of incendiary language will end in more tragedy, as if we haven't seen enough of that from far right lunatics.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:31 pm  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

I'm worried that I have to share a stadium every week with someone who is so unhinged TBH.
But, for the billionth time, voting against a Tory Brexit bill with none of the red lines that a Labour Brexit bill would have included does not make a Labour MP a traitor. This sort of incendiary language will end in more tragedy, as if we haven't seen enough of that from far right lunatics.

Spot on.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:06 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Most normal people think it and a lot of supposed experts and well regarded journalists are suggesting the same - it is you who is so pro-remain that your views are so clouded you cannot see through your mental fog.

I am not saying the issue is the EU - they have negotiated in good faith - how do we repay that good faith parliament basically trashes all their effort - how can they ever trust the UK parliament?

When you have people who deliberately work against the country what would you call them - oh yes suffragetes Its all about personal heart!! You would applaud our own people who work for the other side e.g. Blunt, Burgess etc. Blair is no different to me - but he is top of your list!!

And yet, one of the people who voted against Mrs May and helped her from office was...………...Boris Johnson
Treachery or self interest ??

Fecking hypocrites all of them

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:41 pm  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

I'm worried that I have to share a stadium every week with someone who is so unhinged TBH.
But, for the billionth time, voting against a Tory Brexit bill with none of the red lines that a Labour Brexit bill would have included does not make a Labour MP a traitor. This sort of incendiary language will end in more tragedy, as if we haven't seen enough of that from far right lunatics.

That's if you're dim-witted enough to claim Brexit is nothing more than a Tory bill. Or doing your best to absolve Labour of any responsibility in this sorry affair.

Yes, Cameron called the referendum, but for the billionth time, alongside the Tories, Labour voted for the referendum (a massive result of 544 vs 53). Time after time they swore to 'respect and honour' the result. They voted for Article 50. They campaigned on a leave manifesto. It's as much a result of Labour policy as it is anyone else.

Oh, and let's not forget that around 150 Labour MPs represent Leave constituencies. The bullshttery coming out of their mouths these days is simply embarrassing.

Now, I wouldn't dream of saying anyone doing all of the above for almost 4 years and then changing their minds to: reverse Brexit/2nd referendum/damage the Tories, is a traitor. But they can hardly be considered honourable or trustworthy. If you're surprised people (including millions of Labour voters) are furious, you probably shouldn't be trying to debate the issue.

I can tell you the anger towards MPs such as Nandy and Platt around Wigan/Leigh is palpable.

Actually nah...feck the duplicitous lying turncoats, string 'em up from the Tower.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:09 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

You talk about treason but were happy for the Prime Minister , along with Farage to blatantly lie to all of us.
Which people actually conned the country ?

The "easy" free trade agreement and leaving the EU, currently involves throwing N. Ireland under a political bus.
ALL of the promises made were without any knowledge or idea of how they would be implemented and the Prime Minister seems happy to play fast and loose with the law.
It's a great example and seems to be in contempt of the law, although it's probably just about legal.

Remember the "control" that Boris and Farage wanted was to have the UK Parliament and judiciary as the lawmakers of the land but, it does seem that, he's not too happy with either.

IF Boris (or May before him) had been able to achieve half the deal that "vote Leave" promised, Brexit would have sailed through the Commons.
However, it was always impossible to deliver what was promised and still is.

Oh god move on. Show me a political campaign without exaggerations, half-truths and bold promises and I'll show you a rainbow unicorn dancing the macarena smoking a haddock.

Both sides did all of the above. Leave won and remainers can't handle it, which is why they repeat every you just did (and the red bus) as though it means anything. My eyes automatically glaze over whenever anyone uses this argument.

It's going to be another interesting week in Westminster, although, I actually expect that the deal will go through later in the week.

I think it depends on whether the EU grants an extension. My feeling is that Boris has a few EU leaders onside to veto the 'Parliament letter' in which case it comes down to this deal or no deal. If not we're in for months of more bullshttery.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:57 am  

Cronus wrote:

Oh god move on. Show me a political campaign without exaggerations, half-truths and bold promises and I'll show you a rainbow unicorn dancing the macarena smoking a haddock.

Both sides did all of the above. Leave won and remainers can't handle it, which is why they repeat every you just did (and the red bus) as though it means anything. My eyes automatically glaze over whenever anyone uses this argument.

I think it depends on whether the EU grants an extension. My feeling is that Boris has a few EU leaders onside to veto the 'Parliament letter' in which case it comes down to this deal or no deal. If not we're in for months of more bullshttery.

Of course you are right about both sides exaggerating, to a point. However, what is absolutely beyond argument is that the "deal" that we are likely to end up with bears bares absolutely no resemblance to anything that was promised by "vote leave".
Ireland has been thrown under the political bus and are now seen as a "price worth paying" and this is before we begin to agree the nuts and bolts of our future and still, even after all this time, the majority of the general public, despite crying "lets just get on with it", dont have a clue what is actually going on.
Maybe they dont need to and should juts follow quietly and just accept their fete.

I do agree however, that a further referendum will merely keep the merry go round spinning.
Even if the question on the ballot paper as Boris' deal v Remain, following he result, there would be more questions than answers.

Equally, apart from ridding ourselves of some of the EU's influence, nobody has yet painted anything like a decent vision of the future and this is THE most depressing aspect of all. A small number of very wealthy politicians, inflicting further financial misery on the masses and after 10+ years of austerity, we've had a belly full of that already.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:02 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Of course you are right about both sides exaggerating, to a point. However, what is absolutely beyond argument is that the "deal" that we are likely to end up with bears bares absolutely no resemblance to anything that was promised by "vote leave".
Ireland has been thrown under the political bus and are now seen as a "price worth paying" and this is before we begin to agree the nuts and bolts of our future and still, even after all this time, the majority of the general public, despite crying "lets just get on with it", dont have a clue what is actually going on.
Maybe they dont need to and should juts follow quietly and just accept their fete.

I do agree however, that a further referendum will merely keep the merry go round spinning.
Even if the question on the ballot paper as Boris' deal v Remain, following he result, there would be more questions than answers.

Equally, apart from ridding ourselves of some of the EU's influence, nobody has yet painted anything like a decent vision of the future and this is THE most depressing aspect of all. A small number of very wealthy politicians, inflicting further financial misery on the masses and after 10+ years of austerity, we've had a belly full of that already.

The country voted to leave - guarantee you would be shouting if the result had been reversed and the powers that be had tried to get us out.

The deal allows for us to make our own laws, secure trade deals etc. Stops being dictated to by a EU superstate. I thought every country had a veto seems Cameron tried to use his veto and the EU simply ignored him. Is this really who you would like to be closely aligned to?

Once again you are suggesting that leave voters are simply that stupid they were unable to think through the options - yet remainers could - its crass.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:30 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

The country voted to leave - guarantee you would be shouting if the result had been reversed and the powers that be had tried to get us out.

The deal allows for us to make our own laws, secure trade deals etc. Stops being dictated to by a EU superstate. I thought every country had a veto seems Cameron tried to use his veto and the EU simply ignored him. Is this really who you would like to be closely aligned to?

Once again you are suggesting that leave voters are simply that stupid they were unable to think through the options - yet remainers could - its crass.

There is one absolute certainty.
I would rather be aligned to Europe, then jumping to Trump's tune.
The bloke is a dictator in "democrat" clothing and once out of the EU, we will need some friends with influence and we have a choice of one
As for either remainers or leavers knowing what they were voting for.
Everyone voted for what the "wanted" but NOBODY knew what we were going to get.
As for remainers knowing what they wanted, well, yes, they were happy to continue as we were, instead of gambling on all of our futures :

I'm fairly sure that Trump will agree a trade deal with the UK but, do you think this will be to the benefit of the UK (or what's left of it) or, more in favour of the USA.

We are finally getting a glimpse of some of the "drivers" around the referendum and the future prosperity of the "average UK resident" still looks worse than where we are and have been.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:39 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

There is one absolute certainty.
I would rather be aligned to Europe, then jumping to Trump's tune.
The bloke is a dictator in "democrat" clothing and once out of the EU, we will need some friends with influence and we have a choice of one
As for either remainers or leavers knowing what they were voting for.
Everyone voted for what the "wanted" but NOBODY knew what we were going to get.
As for remainers knowing what they wanted, well, yes, they were happy to continue as we were, instead of gambling on all of our futures :

I'm fairly sure that Trump will agree a trade deal with the UK but, do you think this will be to the benefit of the UK (or what's left of it) or, more in favour of the USA.

We are finally getting a glimpse of some of the "drivers" around the referendum and the future prosperity of the "average UK resident" still looks worse than where we are and have been.

There is an obsession with Trump - there is no guarantee he will be in power after 2020 - he is not a dictator - far from it.

The markets we want are the emerging ones China, India both dwarf the EU in terms of opportunity.

Plenty of senior remainers told everyone we would be trading on WTO terms that included Cameron and Osbourne so its unfair to say we weren't warned and this deal is better than WTO as it stands.

Everyone knew we would be worse off in the short term it was a price to be paid for more control and not giving the EU net £9bn a year and investing that money in our own infrastructure.