Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:05 am  

kirkstaller wrote:

I've never heard of anyone mention Finn the Giant before.

The clue is in the name

Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:07 am  

kirkstaller wrote:

There are two main groups making claims about the Causeway's formation - the scientists and YECs. The YEC are much, much smaller in number but it is still an opinion which holds some sway in NI.

.

Hi, o man who ignores all questions.

There are not two main groups. There is science, which is the only one of any relevance to the issue, and tells us the facts of the formation of the site. It is not an "opinion".

A few YCs are not in any sense a "main group", but a collection of misguided people who base batshit loony views on literally no evidence at all, and are happy to ignore the incontrovertible evidence of, say, carbon dating, or the fossil record. It is only they who "make claims", which is all they can do, as they have zero evidence to support their entirely faith-based opinion.

Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:39 am  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

Hi, o man who ignores all questions.

Says the man who went cowering last time. You can still find my challenge in the thread that got closed. Feel free to PM me your response.

There are not two main groups. There is science, which is the only one of any relevance to the issue, and tells us the facts of the formation of the site. It is not an "opinion".

Of course it is an opinion. Scientists believe it or not have their own biases. Why? Well because they interpret data through a naturalistic framework from which God is completely removed. Ohter people, such as the creationists cited in the article, come to the table with their own baggage - their belief in God. They look at things through this lens and it helps shape their opinions on all kinds of things. This is the reason why you often get two groups of people looking at the same data and formulating conflicting views.

Facts are facts. They do not change. Scientific 'facts' on the other hand do change, and with some regularity I might add. How many times has something been declared a fact only for the scientific consensus to shift and declare it incorrect? Whilst you can claim that that it is admirable that science is willing to change and self-correct, you cannot label scientific theories as fact. In science, today's fact is tomorrow's blunder.

A few YCs are not in any sense a "main group", but a collection of misguided people who base batshit loony views on literally no evidence at all, and are happy to ignore the incontrovertible evidence of, say, carbon dating, or the fossil record.

Over 40% of the US population believes that God created the Heavens and the Earth. YECs are by no means a fringe group.

Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:03 pm  

kirkstaller wrote:

Over 40% of the US population believes that God created the Heavens and the Earth. YECs are by no means a fringe group.

over 60% of the US population don't have a passport and couldn't identify Iraq on a map, maybe you should move over there and spread your hate filled poison.

Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:27 pm  

kirkstaller wrote:

Of course it is an opinion. Scientists believe it or not have their own biases. Why? Well because they interpret data through a naturalistic framework from which God is completely removed.
Ohter people, such as the creationists cited in the article, come to the table with their own baggage - their belief in God. They look at things through this lens and it helps shape their opinions on all kinds of things.

You are merely demonstrating your ignorance of science.

Scientists look at the evidence and form hypotheses based on this evidence they then test this evidence
and formulate theories which provide an explanatory framework to for data.

If a theory or hypothesis is falsified scientists discard the exsting theory and formulate new hypotheses which are consistent with the data and proceed to test these new hypotheses. This allows scientists to discard bad ideas such as the idea that the earth is 6,000 years old which was falsified by geologists towards the end of the 18th century.

It is the scientific method which has allowed our species to travel into space, to cure numerous deadly diseased and come up with important inventions such as the computer.

The reason why science employs methodological naturalism is because applying the supernatural to explain natural natural phenomena does nothing to enhance our understanding of such phenomena as such claims are in themselves unfalsifiable and cannot be tested and where they can be tested they have been falsified.

Creationists on the other hand begin with the apriori view that their religious doctrine is true and then proceed to reject all evidence which contradicts their position. This can be seen in the statements of faith that creationists organisations usually require of their members and also in the fact that the "work" of so called creation scientists consists of little more than logical fallacies, misrepresentations of the scientific data and outright falsehoods.

In essence most creationists hold the view that when reality and doctrine differ reality is wrong and doctrine is correct.

This is the reason why you often get two groups of people looking at the same data and formulating conflicting views.

The reason is that one side has a sound methodology that works and has improved our standard of living significantly and the "other side" rejects any evidence which doesn't confrom to their particular ancient mythology and has a dogmatic belief in the "truth" of this particular mythology.

Facts are facts. They do not change. Scientific 'facts' on the other hand do change, and with some regularity I might add. How many times has something been declared a fact only for the scientific consensus to shift and declare it incorrect? Whilst you can claim that that it is admirable that science is willing to change and self-correct, you cannot label scientific theories as fact. In science, today's fact is tomorrow's blunder.

[/quote][/quote]

The fact that scientific findings are always open to revision is one of its biggest strengths. As mentioned above it is this that allows scientists to discard bad ideas that are unable to explain the scientific data such as those of creationists.

Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:58 pm  

kirkstaller wrote:

Says the man who went cowering last time.

You can stop your absurd rhetorical bullshit. You haven't, and won't, answer any questions. That's a fact.

kirkstaller wrote:

Of course it is an opinion. Scientists believe it or not have their own biases. Why? Well because they interpret data through a naturalistic framework from which God is completely removed. Ohter people, such as the creationists cited in the article, come to the table with their own baggage - their belief in God. They look at things through this lens and it helps shape their opinions on all kinds of things. This is the reason why you often get two groups of people looking at the same data and formulating conflicting views.

Tosh. Scientists look at data scientifically. That would of course include, if there were any evidence of a god or gods, god. They do not remove god. There is no evidence of god.

You correctly identify the belief in god as "baggage" and again correctly realise that this baggage hinders any rational examination of evidence, as the result has to include a god, and that obviously pre-excludes any explanation that excludes god. In other words, if the truth does not include god, then they could never reach it.

kirkstaller wrote:

Facts are facts. They do not change. Scientific 'facts' on the other hand do change, and with some regularity I might add. How many times has something been declared a fact only for the scientific consensus to shift and declare it incorrect?

I don't know. I can't think of a single example. perhaps you could post some links to this bizarre claim?

kirkstaller wrote:

Whilst you can claim that that it is admirable that science is willing to change and self-correct, you cannot label scientific theories as fact.

Nice straw man, but I have not done so.

If you don't even understand what a theory is, and conflate theory with fact, then what hope is there for debating in English? A grasp on language of at least that level is a prerequisite.

In the context of what we are talking about, a fact is something we observe in the world. A theory is our best explanation for it. For example, things fall. The theory of gravity explains it. Newton first outlined the theory, Einstein much improved and expanded the theory, scientists have done gazillions of experiments, tests and refinements, and the theory of gravity remains very much under research and development. There's a lot we now know, and a lot that we don't. But the fact that we do not have a 100% complete theory doesn't affect the fact that gravity exists and it doesn't affect the fact that it makes things fall.

The present state of the theory as to how the Giant's Causeway was actually constructed, which is the product of huge amounts of diligent and peer reviewed scientific research, tests and analysis, is what I would call a scientific theory.

It is not to be confused (but you do confuse it) with somebody saying "Yes, but I think it was formed in Noah's flood", because that is only a theory about as much as someone else saying "I think the Flying Spaghetti Monster did it". In other words, not a theory at all, but an irrational belief.

Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:31 pm  

kirkstaller wrote:

Of course it is an opinion. Scientists believe it or not have their own biases. Why? Well because they interpret data through a naturalistic framework from which God is completely removed. Ohter people, such as the creationists cited in the article, come to the table with their own baggage - their belief in God. They look at things through this lens and it helps shape their opinions on all kinds of things. This is the reason why you often get two groups of people looking at the same data and formulating conflicting views.

Facts are facts. They do not change. Scientific 'facts' on the other hand do change, and with some regularity I might add. How many times has something been declared a fact only for the scientific consensus to shift and declare it incorrect? Whilst you can claim that that it is admirable that science is willing to change and self-correct, you cannot label scientific theories as fact. In science, today's fact is tomorrow's blunder.

Many scientists hold deep spiritual and religious beliefs, it has nothing to do with how they interpret the natural world around them. Just saying God made everything, just as it is, is plainly rediculous.
If God made everything then he made the tide flow and he made rocks break when waves hit them. He must also have made the elements and be responsible for how they interact with each other. Unless God sits there and direct every wave and moves every grain of sand in the wind personally then blindly trotting out explanations for rock formations that are along the lines of "God created them just the way they are" without trying to understand the physical mechanism involved is so stupid not even God would be able to find a way of measuring it.

And what is this "Facts are facts. They do not change. Scientific 'facts' on the other hand do change" bullS4h!t? What's a scientific fact and what's a fact? Give me a fact then.

Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:55 pm  

kirkstaller is a massive gormclops. FACT!

[Kosh]

Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:07 pm  

kirkstaller wrote:

Of course it is an opinion.

No, it isn't. I'm beginning to realise that you don't actually know what these words you keep using mean.

kirkstaller wrote:

Scientists believe it or not have their own biases. Why? Well because they interpret data through a naturalistic framework from which God is completely removed.

They interpret empirical evidence according to proven scientific principles. They don't remove God - he simply isn't required. Plus you conveniently ignore the large number of scientists who are people of faith.

kirkstaller wrote:

Facts are facts. They do not change. Scientific 'facts' on the other hand do change, and with some regularity I might add. How many times has something been declared a fact only for the scientific consensus to shift and declare it incorrect? Whilst you can claim that that it is admirable that science is willing to change and self-correct, you cannot label scientific theories as fact. In science, today's fact is tomorrow's blunder.

You recently claimed to understand science. This paragraph alone demonstrates how very far from understanding science you actually are. It is so wrong on so many levels that I literally do not know where to start. You are quite staggeringly ignorant about science and about the way the world works.

Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:19 pm  

I want to hear one of these "Fact" facts.