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Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4)
Post Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:49 pm
Posted by tigertot on Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:49 pm
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IR80 wrote:
Name the last PM to be elected by the public... I'll put the slow cooker on whilst I await a response.

Was it Bobby Walpole?
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Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4)
Post Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:04 pm
Posted by wrencat1873 on Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:04 pm
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IR80 wrote:
Name the last PM to be elected by the public... I'll put the slow cooker on whilst I await a response.


Well, the answer is Mrs Theresa May, although she did need help from the DUP to be able to form a government.
You do remember the "strong and stable" election, dont you ?

Mind you, compared to Boris, her government was strong and stable :oops:
Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4)
Post Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:07 pm
Posted by Mild Rover on Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:07 pm
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Sal Paradise wrote:
Are you for real - I don't think so - Parliament has done everything it can to block Brexit and that includes the speaker. My view has always been the only way to leave is no deal with all the short term calamitous consequences. We differ on whether this is right thing - if it were only a trading relationship that would be ideal to stay in but its not.

The disconnect as you well know is the inability to accept the vote by MPs - guarantee we would not be in the position if we had voted to remain by a slender majority.


Obviously there is a group of MPs who want to remain, but they are in a minority. Maybe about 114, based on the vote to trigger article 50. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38833883

That was before the last election, but give or take.

The problem is that those who are happy or at least willing to Leave are spread across the spectrum of soft through hard to the impossibilist/no deal approach of the ERG, and completely unable or unwilling to accept anything other than their own specific version that they all believe 17.4 million voters endorsed. The problem isn’t remainers, the problem is the Leave coalition breaking down and failing to unite behind a single coherent position. And everybody kinda forgot about Northern Ireland because it hadn’t been on the news for 20 years - making up for lost time now though, innit?
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Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4)
Post Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:32 pm
Posted by wrencat1873 on Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:32 pm
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Sal Paradise wrote:
Are you for real - I don't think so - Parliament has done everything it can to block Brexit and that includes the speaker. My view has always been the only way to leave is no deal with all the short term calamitous consequences. We differ on whether this is right thing - if it were only a trading relationship that would be ideal to stay in but its not.

The disconnect as you well know is the inability to accept the vote by MPs - guarantee we would not be in the position if we had voted to remain by a slender majority.


Of course I'm for real.
The "leave" campaign was all for our parliament making ALL of the rules.
Remember, the referendum was "leave" or "remain" and the campaign, although fought with the tag line "no deal" is better than a bad deal, the plan was to get a deal, which again, if you remember was going to be oh so easy :oops: and the problem has been that, unfortunately, any good deal has proved far from easy.
The fact that the referendum was not "fought" along party political lines certainly hasn't helped, with different factions of "leave" making their own, very different promises, many of which were simply untrue from the start and our MP's are charged with getting any deal through Parliament.

As we are now, with certain "truths" having been realised, public opinion had changed slightly in favour of remain, and as such, our MP's are in an even more difficult position.
However, right at the bottom of all this seems to be the island of Ireland and to achieve Brexit and honour The Good Friday Agreement appears to be impossible.
Sitting in England, it would be easy to say, sod 'em, we voted "leave" but, NOBODY, least of all our politicians, want a return to the troubles that blighted the 1970's and 80's, especially as it's "only a trade deal" - the latest line used by "leave".
How crazy would it be to have another wave of terrorism over a drive to secure a new trade deal ??

Of course, it's not just a trade deal, as, all of our freedom's are eroded following Brexit.
Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4)
Post Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:16 pm
Posted by tigertot on Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:16 pm
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wrencat1873 wrote:
Well, the answer is Mrs Theresa May, although she did need help from the DUP to be able to form a government.
You do remember the "strong and stable" election, dont you ?

Mind you, compared to Boris, her government was strong and stable :oops:

I think our fishy friend is trying to be smart (infinite monkey theorem) but no PM is technically elected by the people. The leader of the biggest party is invited by the Queen to be PM.
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Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4)
Post Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:08 pm
Posted by The Ghost of '99 on Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:08 pm
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Sal Paradise wrote:
Are you for real - I don't think so - Parliament has done everything it can to block Brexit and that includes the speaker.

Read slowly, for the billionth time: WE ARE ONLY STILL IN THE EU BECAUSE THE HARDEST BREXITEERS VOTED AGAINST THE CONSERVATIVE DEAL.

Labour were never going to vote for such a deal which didn't meet their red lines, and nor should they have given May decided to go for a rather hard version of Brexit. By the time she started trying to get them on board it was too late for her politically.
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Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4)
Post Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:15 pm
Posted by IR80 on Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:15 pm
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tigertot wrote:
I think our fishy friend is trying to be smart (infinite monkey theorem) but no PM is technically elected by the people. The leader of the biggest party is invited by the Queen to be PM.

Yay, insults (attempted, again).

We have NEVER VOTED FOR A PM, like we have never voted for the House of Lords, the Supreme Court, in fact, we don't actually vote for much, and when we do, it gets ignored.
Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4)
Post Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:25 pm
Posted by Cronus on Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:25 pm
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The Ghost of '99 wrote:
Read slowly, for the billionth time: WE ARE ONLY STILL IN THE EU BECAUSE THE HARDEST BREXITEERS VOTED AGAINST THE CONSERVATIVE DEAL.

Labour were never going to vote for such a deal which didn't meet their red lines, and nor should they have given May decided to go for a rather hard version of Brexit. By the time she started trying to get them on board it was too late for her politically.

Oh god change the record. I'll repeat pretty much what I said to you the last time you reeled this irrelevant claptrap out: All you're trying to do is absolve the opposition from any responsibility in enacting the result of the referendum.

The opposite benches voted to hold a referendum, they voted for Article 50, they campaigned on leave manifestos, they promised to "honour and respect" the result. Approx 150 Labour constituencies voted to leave, yet only around 5 Labour MPs (that's 3% of MPs "representing" leave constituencies) have chosen to honour that vote. Again and again they act to hinder and delay, preferring to damage the government rather than enact the referendum. They are a hypocritical lying disgrace.

Yes, the ERG are as guilty as anyone, but at least they're upfront about their intentions, and frankly they're only small in number. Just 34 Tories voted against the deal last time alongside 234 Labour + 76 others.
Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4)
Post Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:50 pm
Posted by Sal Paradise on Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:50 pm
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Mild Rover wrote:
Obviously there is a group of MPs who want to remain, but they are in a minority. Maybe about 114, based on the vote to trigger article 50. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38833883

That was before the last election, but give or take.

The problem is that those who are happy or at least willing to Leave are spread across the spectrum of soft through hard to the impossibilist/no deal approach of the ERG, and completely unable or unwilling to accept anything other than their own specific version that they all believe 17.4 million voters endorsed. The problem isn’t remainers, the problem is the Leave coalition breaking down and failing to unite behind a single coherent position. And everybody kinda forgot about Northern Ireland because it hadn’t been on the news for 20 years - making up for lost time now though, innit?


Remain leaning MPs are far more than 114 - there are 50 SNP for a start so let's be realistic - just because they voted to trigger article 50 doesn't mean they supported leave. David Lammy is one example, Hilary Benn, Ken Clarke another etc.

As a country we shouldn't let a few idiots in Ireland and the inability of the Irish governments to control their citizens. The troubles in the end were simply a cover for organised crime which provided arms to other organised criminals. This still goes on but the lack of a border makes it even easier.

The problem is anything but no deal basically leaves you in and you trade independence for trade access to Europe. As I said before we went into Europe to smooth trade what has happened is we are now controlled by a super state run by the unelected such as Barnier, Tusk and Jonkers. Labour are simply going to offer you two versions of remain.
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Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4)
Post Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:00 pm
Posted by Sal Paradise on Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:00 pm
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The Ghost of '99 wrote:
Read slowly, for the billionth time: WE ARE ONLY STILL IN THE EU BECAUSE THE HARDEST BREXITEERS VOTED AGAINST THE CONSERVATIVE DEAL.

Labour were never going to vote for such a deal which didn't meet their red lines, and nor should they have given May decided to go for a rather hard version of Brexit. By the time she started trying to get them on board it was too late for her politically.


Please - the ERG were a tiny minority compared to Labour and SNP who voted against the withdrawl agreement. Stop talking clap trap as usual

A soft Brexit is a worse option than remain - everybody knows that - Labour know it - they will negotiate a soft Brexit and then campaign against it - happy days!!
Your job is to say to yourself on a job interview does the hiring manager likes me or not. If you aren't a particular manager's cup of tea, you haven't failed -- you've dodged a bullet.
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