Re: Boyd Tamati Jackson : Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:59 pm  

Didn't Morley, Monaghan and Carvell win three Challenge Cups, a heck of a lot more than Boyd, Tamati and Jackson.

They were also playing in a league where everyone was full time professional.

Back in Boyd, Tamati and Jackson's day it was largely a semi professional competition hence one team won everything, and it wasn't us.

Re: Boyd Tamati Jackson : Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:46 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

Didn't Morley, Monaghan and Carvell win three Challenge Cups, a heck of a lot more than Boyd, Tamati and Jackson.

They were also playing in a league where everyone was full time professional.

Back in Boyd, Tamati and Jackson's day it was largely a semi professional competition hence one team won everything, and it wasn't us.

Boyd, Tamati and Jackson also played in an era when front rowers played 80 minutes, and didn't go running off for a rest after half a dozen runs with the ball and a short spell of tackling....

Personally, if you are ranking those six, then Boyd is undoubtedly the best - A fantastic player, he could do most things bar kicking.... Run in with the ball, beat a man with a step, pass a slick short ball, throw a top class long ball out wide, tackle and, best of all, he could intimidate about as much as any RL player I've ever witnessed.

Morley was/is class, but, compared to Boyd, was/is a massive one-trick pony... Carvell is the same, just not as good as Morley.... Bob Jackson was the traditional workhorse prop - Pretty average compared to Boyd, but was an excellent foil to him. He was a quiet assassin, he never did a lot that would get a mention in the pub after the game, but I imagine he was one of those that opposition players fully respected and quietly dreaded coming up against.

As for the 2 hookers, its impossible to compare, because if one position as changed the most in the SL era, then its the number 9 one - Monaghan is head and shoulders over Tamati skill-wise, but if I got into a bit of trouble with an opposing player, or a side needed to put a bit of Wigan-style intimidation on an opposition, then I'd be more than happy knowing that Tamati was on my team.

Re: Boyd Tamati Jackson : Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:54 pm  

Les Boyd was charisma personified when players actually had some charisma, and were not afraid to show it. He was also the toughest and most skillful forward I've watched and the finest and most inspirational captain I've seen. Neither Carvell or Monaghan would have got remotely near two successive Kangaroo tours, Morley ......... maybe.

I beleive Sir Les once called Kevin Tamati the toughest player he had ever encountered, and that's enough for me.

And Bob Jackson was just a Ben Westwood style machine, and a great clubman and character.

Collectively they were awesome, and no-one took many liberties with them (particularly with Sanderson, Roberts & Greg behind them) on the field. Off the field, all three were real gentlemen and very proud to serve the club.

Re: Boyd Tamati Jackson : Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:20 am  

sally cinnamon wrote:

Didn't Morley, Monaghan and Carvell win three Challenge Cups, a heck of a lot more than Boyd, Tamati and Jackson.

They were also playing in a league where everyone was full time professional.

Back in Boyd, Tamati and Jackson's day it was largely a semi professional competition hence one team won everything, and it wasn't us.

Not for the first time I do not see what point you are trying to make.

Without detracting from the excellent contributions Morley, Monaghan and Carvell made, they did indeed play in a league of full time professionals which means they played on a more even playing field. Furthermore they did not win three challenge cups on their own. They were an important part of a good side.

The reason Boyd, Tamati and Jackson are lionised was that, although they did play in a part time side when the only full time side was the Wigan all stars, home and away, this front row, though underdogs, really took it to Wigan good style. Andy Goodway told me that he hated playing against Warrington at that time because they knew they would have to earn their corn and have a torrid time in the bargain. One of the Warrington/Wigan fixtures at that time was described as World War Three and was Rugby League theatre par excellence. On their way to winning the 1986 Premiership Final the Wire team, with this front row, beat Wigan at Wigan which, at that time was the stuff of folk lore. I personally think that this pack would have led us to more glory but for the defection of Andy Gregory to Wigan as he was undoubtedly world class and a vital member of the side.

I do not like to compare heroes from different generations as the context in which the game is played changes and the game is much more sanitised today but, without detracting from the many great front rowers we have had over the years, Boyd, Tamati, and Jackson were indeed a fiercely formidable front row.

Re: Boyd Tamati Jackson : Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:42 pm  

No surprises that Sally turns all "Rogues" on us and brings out the "what did they win?" line. Rickey Bibey has two challenge cup winners medals from his time at Saints and wigan.... he was still an average plodder with limited talent.... I dont understand Sals disdain for the phrase "Boyd Tamati Jackson"...its like a red rag to a bull......

Apparently when it suits Sals arguments, the full time professional league is an indication of how better this current Wire side is than anything that has gone before. But when a criticism of the game in general is to be made the standards of the game are lower than in the late 80's when we were "closest to beating the Aussies" etc.. when we "had players like hanley gregory and Edwards"...etc etc. Make your mind up. which is the weakest period for rugby League I cant tell.

To put everyone in the picture had that wigan side not been So great, and it was season after season choc full of talent, Wires would have had a pretty impressive honours record. More than any other club we suffered at their hands in finals, semi finals, and pipped to league titles.

as New year rolls around remember this one:
Wigan 4 Warrington 6 - New Years Day Thursday 1st January 1987
Venue: Central Park, Wigan
Competition: Stones Bitter Championship
Kick Off: 3:00pm

Wigan Backs: 1. Steve Hampson, 2. Dean Bell, 3. David Stephenson, 4. Joe Lydon, 5. Richard Russell, 6. Ellery Hanley, 7. Shaun Edwards
Wigan Forwards:8. Graeme West, 9. Martin Dermott, 10. Brian Case, 11. Ian Roberts, 12. Rob Louw, 13. Andy Goodway
Wigan Subs Used:(None)

Wigan Tries:(None)
Wigan Goals:David Stephenson 1, Joe Lydon 1

Warrington Backs: 1. Brian Johnson, 2. Rick Thackray, 3. Paul Cullen, 4. Joe Ropati, 5. Mark Forster, 6. Ken Kelly, 7. Paul Bishop
Warrington Forwards: 8. Les Boyd, 9. Kevin Tamati, 10. Bob Jackson, 11. Gary Sanderson, 12. Mark Roberts, 13. Mike Gregory
Warrington Subs Used: Tony Humphries (replaced Les Boyd - Half Time)

Warrington Tries: Paul Cullen
Warrington Goals:Paul Bishop 1


Having beaten league leaders Saints on Boxing Day, Wigan now had third place Warrington to contend with on New Years Day at Central Park. It was a dress rehearsal for the John Player Trophy Final that would follow in ten days time. Warrington had been the only side, other than Australia, to beat Wigan this season and looked odds on again when taking the lead in the 30th Minute with a try from Paul Cullen that was converted by Paul Bishop for 6-0. David Stephenson had missed an early penalty goal attempt but managed to kick on to bring that lead down to 6-2 before half time. However, he missed another on 47 minutes that proved costly in the end because the only other scoring came from a Joe Lydon penalty later in the half. Warrington were hanging on at the end, but did so to complete a league double over Wigan and also put themselves right in the title race. Consolation for Wigan was that leaders Saints didn't take advantage of this slip up, losing 16-10 at Widnes.

Attendance:17,106
---------------------------------------------------------
New years day at a bursting Central park, beating Wigan, being the only side to beat them in the league all season
I know how good that was, I know how good Boyd Tamati and Jackson Were...........I was there

Re: Boyd Tamati Jackson : Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:32 pm  

the flying biscuit wrote:

No surprises that Sally turns all "Rogues" on us and brings out the "what did they win?" line. Rickey Bibey has two challenge cup winners medals from his time at Saints and wigan.... he was still an average plodder with limited talent.... I dont understand Sals disdain for the phrase "Boyd Tamati Jackson"...its like a red rag to a bull......

Apparently when it suits Sals arguments, the full time professional league is an indication of how better this current Wire side is than anything that has gone before. But when a criticism of the game in general is to be made the standards of the game are lower than in the late 80's when we were "closest to beating the Aussies" etc.. when we "had players like hanley gregory and Edwards"...etc etc. Make your mind up. which is the weakest period for rugby League I cant tell.

To put everyone in the picture had that wigan side not been So great, and it was season after season choc full of talent, Wires would have had a pretty impressive honours record. More than any other club we suffered at their hands in finals, semi finals, and pipped to league titles.

as New year rolls around remember this one:
Wigan 4 Warrington 6 - New Years Day Thursday 1st January 1987
Venue: Central Park, Wigan
Competition: Stones Bitter Championship
Kick Off: 3:00pm

Wigan Backs: 1. Steve Hampson, 2. Dean Bell, 3. David Stephenson, 4. Joe Lydon, 5. Richard Russell, 6. Ellery Hanley, 7. Shaun Edwards
Wigan Forwards:8. Graeme West, 9. Martin Dermott, 10. Brian Case, 11. Ian Roberts, 12. Rob Louw, 13. Andy Goodway
Wigan Subs Used:(None)

Wigan Tries:(None)
Wigan Goals:David Stephenson 1, Joe Lydon 1

Warrington Backs: 1. Brian Johnson, 2. Rick Thackray, 3. Paul Cullen, 4. Joe Ropati, 5. Mark Forster, 6. Ken Kelly, 7. Paul Bishop
Warrington Forwards: 8. Les Boyd, 9. Kevin Tamati, 10. Bob Jackson, 11. Gary Sanderson, 12. Mark Roberts, 13. Mike Gregory
Warrington Subs Used: Tony Humphries (replaced Les Boyd - Half Time)

Warrington Tries: Paul Cullen
Warrington Goals:Paul Bishop 1


Having beaten league leaders Saints on Boxing Day, Wigan now had third place Warrington to contend with on New Years Day at Central Park. It was a dress rehearsal for the John Player Trophy Final that would follow in ten days time. Warrington had been the only side, other than Australia, to beat Wigan this season and looked odds on again when taking the lead in the 30th Minute with a try from Paul Cullen that was converted by Paul Bishop for 6-0. David Stephenson had missed an early penalty goal attempt but managed to kick on to bring that lead down to 6-2 before half time. However, he missed another on 47 minutes that proved costly in the end because the only other scoring came from a Joe Lydon penalty later in the half. Warrington were hanging on at the end, but did so to complete a league double over Wigan and also put themselves right in the title race. Consolation for Wigan was that leaders Saints didn't take advantage of this slip up, losing 16-10 at Widnes.

Attendance:17,106
---------------------------------------------------------
New years day at a bursting Central park, beating Wigan, being the only side to beat them in the league all season
I know how good that was, I know how good Boyd Tamati and Jackson Were...........I was there

+1

Re: Boyd Tamati Jackson : Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:24 pm  

the flying biscuit wrote:

No surprises that Sally turns all "Rogues" on us and brings out the "what did they win?" line. Rickey Bibey has two challenge cup winners medals from his time at Saints and wigan.... he was still an average plodder with limited talent.... I dont understand Sals disdain for the phrase "Boyd Tamati Jackson"...its like a red rag to a bull......

Apparently when it suits Sals arguments, the full time professional league is an indication of how better this current Wire side is than anything that has gone before. But when a criticism of the game in general is to be made the standards of the game are lower than in the late 80's when we were "closest to beating the Aussies" etc.. when we "had players like hanley gregory and Edwards"...etc etc. Make your mind up. which is the weakest period for rugby League I cant tell.

To put everyone in the picture had that wigan side not been So great, and it was season after season choc full of talent, Wires would have had a pretty impressive honours record. More than any other club we suffered at their hands in finals, semi finals, and pipped to league titles.

as New year rolls around remember this one:
Wigan 4 Warrington 6 - New Years Day Thursday 1st January 1987
Venue: Central Park, Wigan
Competition: Stones Bitter Championship
Kick Off: 3:00pm

Wigan Backs: 1. Steve Hampson, 2. Dean Bell, 3. David Stephenson, 4. Joe Lydon, 5. Richard Russell, 6. Ellery Hanley, 7. Shaun Edwards
Wigan Forwards:8. Graeme West, 9. Martin Dermott, 10. Brian Case, 11. Ian Roberts, 12. Rob Louw, 13. Andy Goodway
Wigan Subs Used:(None)

Wigan Tries:(None)
Wigan Goals:David Stephenson 1, Joe Lydon 1

Warrington Backs: 1. Brian Johnson, 2. Rick Thackray, 3. Paul Cullen, 4. Joe Ropati, 5. Mark Forster, 6. Ken Kelly, 7. Paul Bishop
Warrington Forwards: 8. Les Boyd, 9. Kevin Tamati, 10. Bob Jackson, 11. Gary Sanderson, 12. Mark Roberts, 13. Mike Gregory
Warrington Subs Used: Tony Humphries (replaced Les Boyd - Half Time)

Warrington Tries: Paul Cullen
Warrington Goals:Paul Bishop 1


Having beaten league leaders Saints on Boxing Day, Wigan now had third place Warrington to contend with on New Years Day at Central Park. It was a dress rehearsal for the John Player Trophy Final that would follow in ten days time. Warrington had been the only side, other than Australia, to beat Wigan this season and looked odds on again when taking the lead in the 30th Minute with a try from Paul Cullen that was converted by Paul Bishop for 6-0. David Stephenson had missed an early penalty goal attempt but managed to kick on to bring that lead down to 6-2 before half time. However, he missed another on 47 minutes that proved costly in the end because the only other scoring came from a Joe Lydon penalty later in the half. Warrington were hanging on at the end, but did so to complete a league double over Wigan and also put themselves right in the title race. Consolation for Wigan was that leaders Saints didn't take advantage of this slip up, losing 16-10 at Widnes.

Attendance:17,106
---------------------------------------------------------
New years day at a bursting Central park, beating Wigan, being the only side to beat them in the league all season
I know how good that was, I know how good Boyd Tamati and Jackson Were...........I was there

+1

A victory that took place a few short days after Sir Les Boyd had inspired us to thrash Widnes (themselves no slouches at the time) in the JPS semi, in which he kept a certain Kurt Sorenson and his dubious friends in his backpocket all match. Kevin didn't play in that match, Jacko did if I recall. Wigan of course, went on to win the final as they invariably did in those days with a full-time squad but the fact remains, that front row was a collective jewel in Wires crown.

Re: Boyd Tamati Jackson : Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:51 pm  

morrisseyisawire wrote:

+1

A victory that took place a few short days after Sir Les Boyd had inspired us to thrash Widnes (themselves no slouches at the time) in the JPS semi, in which he kept a certain Kurt Sorenson and his dubious friends in his backpocket all match. Kevin didn't play in that match, Jacko did if I recall. Wigan of course, went on to win the final as they invariably did in those days with a full-time squad but the fact remains, that front row was a collective jewel in Wires crown.

+1 as well..didnt paul bishop get red carded for fighting with one of the hulmes culminating with him missing the final..(sure there was something dodgy about his 2 match ban)..i remember sir les and sorenson going at it again..and how good was brian johnson that afternoon

Re: Boyd Tamati Jackson : Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:32 pm  

Didn't wigan only lose two games that season....both to us? Our front row this year is cracking but it's got some way to go to eclipse BTJ!

Re: Boyd Tamati Jackson : Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:37 pm  

I was there too

I remember us having a decent win ratio at CP during that era. Far better than we could have reasonably expected.