Re: Doncaster Squad 2015 - discussion : Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:27 pm  

DemonUK wrote:

Well if you make the top 4 and Hull FC make bottom 4 in SL I think we will see DR at its worst. Teams in the same comp sharing players? DR is no longer fit for purpose

While I agree in sentiment in our case I don't anticipate this being an issue as with the number of full time teams next year I don't see us making the top 4.

Re: Doncaster Squad 2015 - discussion : Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:30 pm  

In theory, the idea of closer ties between Super League clubs and lower division clubs was a good one when DR was first introduced. Now that it's possible for the two clubs to be playing in the same league, it begs the question as to whether it continues to be viable in its current form.

I don't think we can get too pedantic about the idea of clubs not being allowed to "share players" if they're in the same league because this already happens with the loan system. Numerous players went on loan from one Super League club to another Super League club in 2014. The loan system isn't going to stop even if DR does.

Getting the correct balances between the rights of the loaning club and fair play for the club lending the player is difficult because the loaning club will always feel they have the right to recall "their" player at any time, whilst the club lending the player want to have some stability to the loan period.

Whether the system remains under the name of DR or whether it is replaced by a loan system only, the RFL needs to address this issue.

I would abolish the DR system as we know it. I would limit loan players to two at any one club at any given time. The period of the loan must be for a minimum of 28 days. A player could only be recalled to the parent club if medical evidence was accepted by the RFL to show the parent club had injuries that warranted the player being recalled.

Re: Doncaster Squad 2015 - discussion : Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:46 pm  

Double Movement wrote:

In theory, the idea of closer ties between Super League clubs and lower division clubs was a good one when DR was first introduced. Now that it's possible for the two clubs to be playing in the same league, it begs the question as to whether it continues to be viable in its current form.

I don't think we can get too pedantic about the idea of clubs not being allowed to "share players" if they're in the same league because this already happens with the loan system. Numerous players went on loan from one Super League club to another Super League club in 2014. The loan system isn't going to stop even if DR does.

Getting the correct balances between the rights of the loaning club and fair play for the club lending the player is difficult because the loaning club will always feel they have the right to recall "their" player at any time, whilst the club lending the player want to have some stability to the loan period.

Whether the system remains under the name of DR or whether it is replaced by a loan system only, the RFL needs to address this issue.

I would abolish the DR system as we know it. I would limit loan players to two at any one club at any given time. The period of the loan must be for a minimum of 28 days. A player could only be recalled to the parent club if medical evidence was accepted by the RFL to show the parent club had injuries that warranted the player being recalled.

I like this approach in particular the necessity for medical evidence needed - just out of interest where would you stand on the loan rules that occasionally ban players for appearing against their parent club? Personally in line with the medical necessity bit to prevent you from deliebrately hamstringing your rivals I wouldn't mind seeing the ability to put that into loan agreements revoked so its an all or nothing affair ie. a season long loan would be for the season. Also should the player on a season long loan be injured, should the injury not keep him out all season I'd like to see him return to the loaned club rather than as sometimes seems to happen the loan be cancelled as he goes back to the parent club for treatment and then does not end up back with the loan club again.

Re: Doncaster Squad 2015 - discussion : Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:55 pm  

Most clubs don't want their players to be cup tied or play against them in a league game when on loan. One exception that I can think of was Gareth Hock last season. When he was on loan from Salford to Widnes he was still eligible to play for Widnes against Salford.

I can understand why the team lending the player would prefer they didn't play against them. They may be concerned that their own players could be injuring their own players - which they certainly would want to avoid. Say a Dons player went on loan to Hunslet and we were due to play them next week. We wouldn't want our players knocking seven bells out of one of our own, would we? I think this provision needs to stay.

I like the idea of season long loans. Four Leeds players have gone on season long loans to Featherstone: Jordon Baldwinson, Thomas Mimms, Mason Tonks, and Alex Foster.

I presume the usual rules will apply and they can be recalled at any time if they're needed for duty at Leeds.

I would prefer a limit of two loan signings at any one time per club as this would encourage sides to invest in their own development, rather than rely too heavily on other clubs.

Season long loans might not be the right arrangement if a player is on the verge of first team rugby at his home club which is why I think the provision to loan for a month at a time needs to stay, but safeguards should be put in place to make sure they don't return early unless there are exceptional circumstances verified by the RFL.

Getting these balances right is important. I hope the RFL get their act together on this rather than let things drift along as they seem to be doing at the moment. I can imagine two DR clubs coming together in the middle eight at the end of the season and the RFL will then think, "Errmmm, what do we do now?"

Saying that, I seem to recall at the Dons fans forum something was said to the effect that once a player has played for one side in the middle eight, they are no longer eligible to play for the other team from then onwards. although on checking the RFL rules I can't actually find anything to confirm this.

The 2015 rules at the RFL rules state that a player must have played in at least six league games whilst on DR to qualify to play in the end of season leagues of eight. although DR players with a salary cap of £20k or more only have to have played three times. Rule B3.17 then goes on to say that any player swapping from DR to a loan deal after the end of the registration deadline must have played in at least three league games to be eligible. Is there any wonder that things go wrong with overly complicated rules like this?!

Let's make things simple: Do away with DR and bring in better rules for the loan system.

Re: Doncaster Squad 2015 - discussion : Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:07 pm  

Check some hidden section of the RFL rules.. Thats where the most important bits and pieces normally hide

Re: Doncaster Squad 2015 - discussion : Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:36 pm  

Double Movement wrote:

Most clubs don't want their players to be cup tied or play against them in a league game when on loan. One exception that I can think of was Gareth Hock last season. When he was on loan from Salford to Widnes he was still eligible to play for Widnes against Salford.

I can understand why the team lending the player would prefer they didn't play against them. They may be concerned that their own players could be injuring their own players - which they certainly would want to avoid. Say a Dons player went on loan to Hunslet and we were due to play them next week. We wouldn't want our players knocking seven bells out of one of our own, would we? I think this provision needs to stay.

I like the idea of season long loans. Four Leeds players have gone on season long loans to Featherstone: Jordon Baldwinson, Thomas Mimms, Mason Tonks, and Alex Foster.

I presume the usual rules will apply and they can be recalled at any time if they're needed for duty at Leeds.

I would prefer a limit of two loan signings at any one time per club as this would encourage sides to invest in their own development, rather than rely too heavily on other clubs.

Season long loans might not be the right arrangement if a player is on the verge of first team rugby at his home club which is why I think the provision to loan for a month at a time needs to stay, but safeguards should be put in place to make sure they don't return early unless there are exceptional circumstances verified by the RFL.

Getting these balances right is important. I hope the RFL get their act together on this rather than let things drift along as they seem to be doing at the moment. I can imagine two DR clubs coming together in the middle eight at the end of the season and the RFL will then think, "Errmmm, what do we do now?"

Saying that, I seem to recall at the Dons fans forum something was said to the effect that once a player has played for one side in the middle eight, they are no longer eligible to play for the other team from then onwards. although on checking the RFL rules I can't actually find anything to confirm this.

The 2015 rules at the RFL rules state that a player must have played in at least six league games whilst on DR to qualify to play in the end of season leagues of eight. although DR players with a salary cap of £20k or more only have to have played three times. Rule B3.17 then goes on to say that any player swapping from DR to a loan deal after the end of the registration deadline must have played in at least three league games to be eligible. Is there any wonder that things go wrong with overly complicated rules like this?!

Let's make things simple: Do away with DR and bring in better rules for the loan system.

Your Featherstone assumption is wrong. They have deals with Leeds for 2016, but for 2015 they have 1 yr contracts with Fev, they are not on loan (do me a favour ) Off course this still allows Fev to have another 5 Loan/DR players a game if they so wish. So in theory up to 9 players that are not really Fev players.

Also I could only find the 2014 rules on the RFL website. Please provide a link to the 2015 rules for me seeing as the RFL are not replying either via Email or Twitter

Re: Doncaster Squad 2015 - discussion : Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:50 pm  

DemonUK wrote: Your Featherstone assumption is wrong. They have deals with Leeds for 2016, but for 2015 they have 1 yr contracts with Fev, they are not on loan (do me a favour ) Off course this still allows Fev to have another 5 Loan/DR players a game if they so wish. So in theory up to 9 players that are not really Fev players. Also I could only find the 2014 rules on the RFL website. Please provide a link to the 2015 rules for me seeing as the RFL are not replying either via Email or Twitter Try this link to the Featherstone website: http://www.featherstonerovers.net/article.php?id=31410 The headline is, "Rhinos send quartet on loan". Try this link to the RFL website. You can tell the rules have been updated for the 2015 season as B3.6 states there are 2 points for a win and one point for a draw in the Championship games. http://www.therfl.co.uk/the-rfl/rules/interactive_operational_rules?section=B3 I hope you get a reply from the RFL soon!

DemonUK wrote: Your Featherstone assumption is wrong. They have deals with Leeds for 2016, but for 2015 they have 1 yr contracts with Fev, they are not on loan (do me a favour ) Off course this still allows Fev to have another 5 Loan/DR players a game if they so wish. So in theory up to 9 players that are not really Fev players. Also I could only find the 2014 rules on the RFL website. Please provide a link to the 2015 rules for me seeing as the RFL are not replying either via Email or Twitter Try this link to the Featherstone website: http://www.featherstonerovers.net/article.php?id=31410 The headline is, "Rhinos send quartet on loan". Try this link to the RFL website. You can tell the rules have been updated for the 2015 season as B3.6 states there are 2 points for a win and one point for a draw in the Championship games. http://www.therfl.co.uk/the-rfl/rules/interactive_operational_rules?section=B3 I hope you get a reply from the RFL soon!

Re: Doncaster Squad 2015 - discussion : Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:05 pm  

Fair enough. I remember reading something different, however I cannot find it now. As for the DR rules, I maintain it is no longer fit for purpose when clubs can be in the same comp. A comp that has such an important and financially rewarding outcome

Re: Doncaster Squad 2015 - discussion : Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:03 am  

Actually like DemonUK I'm certain someone on here posted a link to an article saying they had signed for a year though can no longer find it. Also all the other articles I have found read as though they have signed full time with Featherstone for one year but already have deals in place at Leeds for next year. Even the article on Featherstones sight suggests this if you read past the title as the word loan does not come up anywhere else. Besides if it was a loan or dual reg surely the players would still have Leeds squad numbers? Which the articles all make a point of saying they don't.

Re: Doncaster Squad 2015 - discussion : Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:09 am  

I presume the question being posed is whether Featherstone are trying to take advantage of the situation by signing them on full-time when they're really on loan?

Here is a quote from the RFL confirming the loan/DR limitations:

LOANS AND DUAL REGISTRATION

C1:2:10
LIMIT ON NUMBERS

A Club shall not include in any 19 man Match Squad nor play in any Match:

more than five Players who are on loan to it and/or dual registered to it (irrespective of which Club they are registered with); and
More than 4 Players who are dual registered to it

Another point of clarification is then added by the RFL:

C1:2:13
RULES RELATING TO LOANS

A Club shall not be entitled to either loan a Player or receive a Player on loan unless:

A. it ensures that the relevant loan form (correctly completed as prescribed by the Board from time to time) is completed and immediately sent to the Board;
B. it receives an acknowledgement of loan registration from the Board;
C. the loan is for a minimum period of 28 days save where the loan agreement states that the Player may only play for the Reserve or Academy team in which case the minimum period shall be 48 hours;
D. the loan is not (in the opinion of the Board) an attempt to circumvent the negotiated transfer rules set out in Section C1:2:8;

Item D being the interesting one.

I would hope the RFL have got this situation covered. I would also hope Featherstone are not trying to circumvent any rules. The RFL don't seem eager to clarify such matters. I feel the press ought to be asking these types of questions ... but they don't!

PS. It has been announced today that Halifax and Hull KR have signed a DR agreement for 2015 which could bring two more DR teams together in the middle eight.