Re: Joel Moon : Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:17 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Sadly I agree with the majority on here - Watkins is superb to watch when he is on his game sadly that seldom happened in the second half of last season. The threat always looked like it was coming on the left hand side

I think Watkins finds it difficult when he doesn't get any good ball, all his tries tend to be solo efforts or great footwork.

Re: Joel Moon : Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:43 pm  

Watkins is a great athlete, he just doesn't have a RL brain.
Moon does a good job at centre, but he isn't a natural there, certainly not a winger's centre.

Whilst they're good, perhaps it's time for people to realise they simply aren't as good as we've thought/claimed. Two great athletes, yes. Two great RL centres, no.

Re: Joel Moon : Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:40 pm  

Watkins could be a great winger's centre if he changes where and when he gets the ball. Unlike so many (Atkins, Yeaman etc) he actually does look to pass, and has from age 17. He needs to learn that its not just up to the inside men to decide when/how he gets the ball, but is a heck of a lot to do with where he puts himself. I think that's more about Watkins taking more responsibility than anything else.

Moon seems to get into better positions to receive the ball but then heads off at 45 degrees almost every time, with thoughts of having a great finisher like Hall outside him seemingly the last thing in his mind. He needs to picture imaginary tramlines on the pitch and force himself to run straight.

For the attack on both sides though, Leeds need better structure that helps create space on a regular basis.

Re: Joel Moon : Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:56 am  

Moon's angle of run isn't necessarily the problem. Centres are taught to run out to engage the winger then bend in, hopefully sucking in the winger and then feeding the winger who should be in space.

I'm not sure Moon is getting the ball in the right position to execute this properly. He either seems to be to deep or to far infield. I'd try to get him wider. The 2nd rower should fill his place. Again, this comes down to structure.

I still feel that Ablett is the best centre at the club. He's the only one who seems to be able to create space for himself and his winger. I think that when Ablett isn't in the centres we lose a bit of physicality in the back line, certainly in an aggressive sense. If Watkins continues his second half of the season form I'd contemplate putting Ablett in his place - controversial, it would benefit the team.

Re: Joel Moon : Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:36 am  

BrisbaneRhino wrote:

For the attack on both sides though, Leeds need better structure that helps create space on a regular basis.

This is the key comment for me. There is nothing wrong with the individual players - at least compared to other SL opposition. The idea that Watkins and Moon don't have RL brains is pure nonsense. If anything they have more skill than the likes of Senior who relied on brute strength to make inroads for himself and space for his winger.

The backs can't be expected to win games for us by themselves, and they cannot be relied upon to create opportunities from nothing in every game. The team looked flat offensively for most of the season. Clichés about the forwards creating a platform and winning collisions come to mind. As do those about the half-backs doing a proper job of organising the team and giving decent distribution.

I'd add hooker into this equation too. Whether it was about injury or age, Burrow looked less effective in breaking sides down the middle last year than he did in the two previous. Aiton looks more of a grafter than a scooter/line-breaker. We need more threat in the middle of the field if the backs are going to fulfil their potential.

Re: Joel Moon : Thu Nov 27, 2014 12:08 pm  

What Leeds don't do effectively enough is hold middle defenders.

When decoy runners are employed, they're usually either at walking pace or already so far ahead of the ball that they're not offering a threat. Defenders can just pass them off and drift outwards, cramping the room the outside backs have to work in.

Sometimes the game is about being unselfish enough to make runs when you know you're not going to get the ball. Not enough of Leeds forwards are either energetic enough or willing enough to do that IMO, compared to watching how the very best teams play and the effort they put in for each other off the ball.

Re: Joel Moon : Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:45 pm  

Andy Gilder wrote:

What Leeds don't do effectively enough is hold middle defenders.

When decoy runners are employed, they're usually either at walking pace or already so far ahead of the ball that they're not offering a threat. Defenders can just pass them off and drift outwards, cramping the room the outside backs have to work in.

Sometimes the game is about being unselfish enough to make runs when you know you're not going to get the ball. Not enough of Leeds forwards are either energetic enough or willing enough to do that IMO, compared to watching how the very best teams play and the effort they put in for each other off the ball.

We don't have enough bodies is motion that is for sure.All we ever seem to do is hit JJB,kylie or JP on a crash ball or have JP Do a turn up for Sinfield or Mcguire who fire a wide ball to a static centre which becomes all too predictable.

Re: Joel Moon : Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:08 pm  

What defenders hate most is having to make split second decisions. The more bodies you put in motion, the more decisions defenders have to make and the more likely they are to make a poor one.

To me, that's incredibly basic coaching but also requires the playmakers to be able to recognise it and put it right out on the field as well, getting their runners where they want them.

Re: Joel Moon : Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:16 pm  

Andy Gilder wrote:

What defenders hate most is having to make split second decisions. The more bodies you put in motion, the more decisions defenders have to make and the more likely they are to make a poor one.

To me, that's incredibly basic coaching but also requires the playmakers to be able to recognise it and put it right out on the field as well, getting their runners where they want them.

It also requires the forwards to make the support runs. They need to have enough energy to make the support run in such a fashion that it looks believeable, or make a run at all.

I think our weakness at prop has led to a knackered backrow because they've been doing prop work in-field. That's had a knock on effect on our support runs. Hopefully an injury free season for JJB along with Ward & Walters might see some pace in our backrow.

Re: Joel Moon : Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:04 pm  

Him wrote:

It also requires the forwards to make the support runs. They need to have enough energy to make the support run in such a fashion that it looks believeable, or make a run at all.

I think our weakness at prop has led to a knackered backrow because they've been doing prop work in-field. That's had a knock on effect on our support runs. Hopefully an injury free season for JJB along with Ward & Walters might see some pace in our backrow.

On the forwards' energy, add also that each forward has to make 20% more tackles than they would normally when we play a 4-tackle-a-game hooker.