Re: Sam Burgess : Sat Nov 01, 2014 8:38 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

I believe he wants to prove something to himself - his goal will be the international set up but I don't think that is his primary motivation. I can't see him ever going back to Australia.

sal he will be back in the nrl as soon as his bath contract ends, if he doesn't make the world cup squad then he will be back to south sydney possibly even sooner

he has gone to rugger to prove that he can master the game and play it at the highest level but he has also gone there to give his body a rest from the nrl and to prolong his nrl career long term

[Ex-Swarcliffe Rhino]

Re: Sam Burgess : Sat Nov 01, 2014 8:49 pm  

Northern Boys wrote:

Sam Burgess is the best player from our country to have ever played in the Australian competition,I would even go as far to say that he is the best English player ever to play the game

Absolute hyperbole.

You could argue of this generation and not be wrong, but ever? really?

He's gone to Yawnion for one reason. Exposure.

We may have the best game but we are light years behind in respect of exposure of our top stars in a global sense. Thus their ability to make £££.

Sam will go to Bath, probably be a decent success in what he does at club level, but unless he makes the England team and the England team go onto success in the upcoming Yawnion world cup he will be branded a failure by the RU lickspittles.

SBW had the advantage of playing in arguably one of the best RU sides going, Sam will not.

Re: Sam Burgess : Sun Nov 02, 2014 7:36 pm  

It would appear that Bath intend to play Sam in the back row with a proposed mid December debut. This is perhaps understandable considering Bath have Eastmond & Joseph playing well in the centres but they are lacking depth in the forwards.

While for England it is more likely he will play inside centre.

For both club and country the talk is to let him play his natural game and not worry too much about his lack of Union expertise.

Re: Sam Burgess : Sun Nov 02, 2014 9:04 pm  

Burgess has just signed for Dewsbury Rams today

Burgess has just signed for Dewsbury Rams today

Re: Sam Burgess : Sun Nov 02, 2014 9:47 pm  

Juan Cornetto wrote:

It would appear that Bath intend to play Sam in the back row with a proposed mid December debut. This is perhaps understandable considering Bath have Eastmond & Joseph playing well in the centres but they are lacking depth in the forwards.

While for England it is more likely he will play inside centre.

For both club and country the talk is to let him play his natural game and not worry too much about his lack of Union expertise.

Absolutely zero chance of him playing one position for his club and a completely different one for his country.

Re: Sam Burgess : Mon Nov 03, 2014 11:05 am  

Northern Boys wrote:

Sam Burgess is the best player from our country to have ever played in the Australian competition,I would even go as far to say that he is the best English player ever to play the game

I'm hoping for a cameo return to the Bulls for his last season before retirement

Best English player of this generation. I can only go back to the early 90s, but even with that frame of reference he isn't a better rugby player than Ellery Hanley, who is probably alongside Darren Lockyer, Mal Meninga, Brad Fittler and Andrew Johns among the best players of any nationality I have seen play the game.

Sonny Bill Williams still has time to join that group if he stops d*cking around in Union. Ditto Sam Burgess, but he still has a bit to do yet to make that elite group.

Others with longer memories (and lifespans) could no doubt add to this list.

Will be wasted in Union, sadly. He's genetically engineered for Rugby League. He won't have the same impact in Union.

Re: Sam Burgess : Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:05 pm  

El Diablo wrote:

Best English player of this generation. I can only go back to the early 90s, but even with that frame of reference he isn't a better rugby player than Ellery Hanley, who is probably alongside Darren Lockyer, Mal Meninga, Brad Fittler and Andrew Johns among the best players of any nationality I have seen play the game.

Sonny Bill Williams still has time to join that group if he stops d*cking around in Union. Ditto Sam Burgess, but he still has a bit to do yet to make that elite group.

Others with longer memories (and lifespans) could no doubt add to this list.

Will be wasted in Union, sadly. He's genetically engineered for Rugby League. He won't have the same impact in Union.

I have not been that fussed about any defections to RU in the past, but this is an exception. I think it's a tragic loss of a genuine star player with the presence on and off the filed to raise the profile of the international game in particular. I have no doubt that a big part of the success of the last world cup was down to the mouthwatering prospect of an England team with someone who could run over and stop anyone the Aussies or Kiwis could put on the field. And he delivered, even if the team didn't quite. He could have (and should have) led our national side (which really needs to be GB, not bloody England) for some time.

I agree completely with you, he will be utterly wasted in Union. If he'd grown up playing the game he would have probably been a world class player, but my 11 year old has instinctive ruck skills he's developed over the last 4 years, he doesn't even think about it - and that is what Burgess will have to be like if he is going to play back row. At centre you might be able to get away with learning on the job for a couple of years but back row forwards have to be at most breakdowns - that's their job - to win and secure ball. It's complex, and a penalty minefield.
I may be proved wrong, I often am but I think if England want to use him as a centre then it simply confirms how inept and clueless the England management have been regarding the development of the England backline (although I see they have enlisted the assistance of Brian Ashton on a part time basis so maybe the message is getting through that they don't know what they are doing).

Re: Sam Burgess : Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:26 pm  

DHM wrote:

I have not been that fussed about any defections to RU in the past, but this is an exception. I think it's a tragic loss of a genuine star player with the presence on and off the filed to raise the profile of the international game in particular. I have no doubt that a big part of the success of the last world cup was down to the mouthwatering prospect of an England team with someone who could run over and stop anyone the Aussies or Kiwis could put on the field. And he delivered, even if the team didn't quite. He could have (and should have) led our national side (which really needs to be GB, not bloody England) for some time.

I agree completely with you, he will be utterly wasted in Union. If he'd grown up playing the game he would have probably been a world class player, but my 11 year old has instinctive ruck skills he's developed over the last 4 years, he doesn't even think about it - and that is what Burgess will have to be like if he is going to play back row. At centre you might be able to get away with learning on the job for a couple of years but back row forwards have to be at most breakdowns - that's their job - to win and secure ball. It's complex, and a penalty minefield.
I may be proved wrong, I often am but I think if England want to use him as a centre then it simply confirms how inept and clueless the England management have been regarding the development of the England backline (although I see they have enlisted the assistance of Brian Ashton on a part time basis so maybe the message is getting through that they don't know what they are doing).

As well as his obvious physical gifts, I think the secret of Sam Burgess's success lies in his attitude, and it's very obviously present in his BBC interview on arriving at Bath. He is willing to work, always willing to learn and never too big for his boots.

Because of all that, he can master Union as a back-rower (which is where he has to play, he's quick and agile for a forward, but even in RU he isn't a back) but I don't think he can do it in time to make the World Cup squad ahead of the likes of Ben Morgan, Tom Wood, Chris Robshaw, Tom Croft, Billy Vunipola etc. Morgan and Vunipola will carry and offload almost as well as Sam Burgess can, but crucially they are years ahead of him in awareness at the breakdown. Most back-rowers are expected to be a back-up option at line-outs as well at Test level. I just don't think Sam Burgess's superior athleticism in the loose is going to be enough, in that time frame.

Re: Sam Burgess : Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:53 pm  

I hope the lad makes the grade. The crucial point is which position will he play in. Also he needs to be given time.
Any failure on his part whether major or minor will encourage the broad sheet sports journilsts to put boot the boot in.
Stephen Jones and Stuart Barnes are not big fans of league players crossing over.
As for various claims about Burgess being one of the best players of all times, I think not , maybe in the future.
I can think of several players who I would put ahead of Burgess. The main one being Mal Reilly.

Re: Sam Burgess : Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:46 pm  

El Diablo wrote:

Because of all that, he can master Union as a back-rower (which is where he has to play, he's quick and agile for a forward, but even in RU he isn't a back) but I don't think he can do it in time to make the World Cup squad ahead of the likes of Ben Morgan, Tom Wood, Chris Robshaw, Tom Croft, Billy Vunipola etc. Morgan and Vunipola will carry and offload almost as well as Sam Burgess can, but crucially they are years ahead of him in awareness at the breakdown. Most back-rowers are expected to be a back-up option at line-outs as well at Test level. I just don't think Sam Burgess's superior athleticism in the loose is going to be enough, in that time frame.

The irony is England could have the best player in Europe, Stefan Armitage, in the back row but won't select him while he plays in France. It's rediculous, this isn't kids mini rugby where you reward lads that turn up and train every week, it's international rugby where you put your best 15 on the pitch. I know the ruling is supposed to be because French teams are not particularly helpful when it comes to releasing their highly paid talent for the endless friendly matches the RFU likes to put on to raise the huge piles of cash they like to roll around in, and it's also designed to help prevent an exodus of English players but it's another example of English rugby dogmatism that makes me cringe.