Re: 2018 England tour to Australia? : Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:57 am  

mrpurfect wrote:

start Superleague on Boxing Days.

A lot of the boxing day friendlies (even at SL level) get called off, would you really want to risk losing those bumper opening week crowds? Also the obvious question, when do players get a rest?

Re: 2018 England tour to Australia? : Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:57 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

These tours were so popular - check the attendances!! We have had this discussion before 1982 Aussies were the greatest side that ever toured this country look at the crowds

6 games including one international attracted crowds of less than 10K
3 games had crowds < 11k
The three internationals 26k Hull, 23k Wigan, 17k Headingley

Your view of how good the international game was in its heyday simply don't stack up - without a strong club game where do the players come from to form the international side?

If we hadn't have started SL we would still be part time playing against a FT Aussie side. How could those games have ever been competitive it would have been like England playing France - the international game really would have been a joke.

So you think tours will return the game to its glory days - the game was in such good order prior to SL!! So how do you suggest these tours are conducted - we return to winter rugby?

Ok, so 1982 wasn't hugely attended - but the 3rd game was a dead rubber and the attendances for Hull and Wigan are actually comparable to the 2001 and 2003 Ashes. In fact, the 26k at Hull is higher than any game in 2001/3.

Meanwhile, the Ashes tours 86, 90 & 94 still have 3 of the highest ever attendances versus Australia in the UK, the lowest attendance being the dead rubber at Central Park in 1986. Interesting that the highest standalone attendances since 1998 were also as Great Britain, in 2004, and that switching to England we've needed double-headers or finals to break the 30k mark.

I'm certainly not anti-SL, but those tours remain some of the greatest sporting events I've seen - certainly 1990 and 1994. It's a crying shame they have been lost, though the inclusion of NZ and other countries in the Four Nations has been a huge positive, and the last few international tournaments have been outstanding. Where do we go from here? I'd love the return of Ashes tours (perhaps Aus vs top 3 SL & 3 x tests), but I'm not sure there's room for them any more unless we shake things up (again), upset a few people and make room.

1986
25 Oct: Great Britain 16-38 Australia Old Trafford, Manchester: 50,583
8 Nov: Great Britain 4-34 Australia, Elland Road, Leeds: 30,808
22 Nov: Great Britain 15-24 Australia, Central Park, Wigan: 20,169
1990
27 Oct: Great Britain 19-12 Australia, Wembley Stadium, London: 54,569
10 Nov: Great Britain 10-14 Australia, Old Trafford, Manchester: 46,615
24 Nov: Great Britain 0-14 Australia, Elland Road, Leeds: 32,500
1994
22 Oct: Great Britain 8-4 Australia, Wembley Stadium, London: 57,034
5 Nov: Great Britain 8-38 Australia, Old Trafford, Manchester: 43,930
15 Nov: Great Britain 4-23 Australia, Elland Road, Leeds: 39,468

Post-SL
2001
11 Nov: Great Britain 20-12 Australia, McAlpine Stadium, Huddersfield: 21,458
17 Nov: Great Britain 12-40 Australia, Reebok Stadium, Bolton: 22,152
24 Nov: Great Britain 8-28 Australia, JJB Stadium, Wigan: 25,011
2003
8 Nov: Great Britain 18-22 Australia, JJB Stadium, Wigan: 24,614
15 Nov: Great Britain 20-23 Australia, Kingston Communications Stadium, Hull: 22,152
22 Nov: Great Britain 12-18 Australia, McAlpine Stadium, Huddersfield: 24,126

Tri/Four Nations:
30 Oct 2004: Great Britain 8-12 Australia, City of Manchester Stadium, Manchester: 38,572
13 Nov 2004: Great Britain 24–12 Australia, JJB Stadium, Wigan: 25,004
27 Nov 2004: Great Britain 4-44 Australia, Elland Road, Leeds: 39,120 (final)
5 Nov 2005: Great Britain 6-20 Australia, JJB Stadium, Wigan: 25,004
19 Nov 2005: Great Britain 26-14 Australia, Galpharm Stadium, Huddersfield: 19,232
31 Oct 2009: England 16-26 Australia, DW Stadium, Wigan: 23,123
14 Nov 2009: England 16-46 Australia, Elland Road, Leeds: 31,042 (final)
5 Nov 2011: England 20-36 Australia, Wembley Stadium, London: 42,344 (double header)
19 Nov 2011: England 8-30 Australia, Elland Road, Leeds: 34,174 (final)
26 Oct 2013: England 20-28 Australia, Millennium Stadium, Cardiff: 45,052 (double header)

Re: 2018 England tour to Australia? : Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:43 pm  

I don't really get the whole ''it should still be GB not England" thing. It's not like RU (don't wet your pants Gutterfax) where the Lions are truly made up of a mixture of Eng/Welsh/Scot/Irish players. We could've kept it as GB but the team lineups for the last several years wouldn't have changed at all.

Only reason seems noslagtic, nothing that would actually sell the series more.

Re: 2018 England tour to Australia? : Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:46 pm  

If we want tours back then SL will have to continue playing for at least some of the time the tour takes place.
SL will have to sacrifice for the international game, something it has rarely, if ever, done.
The same goes for the NRL. Which is probably a bigger, more selfish, beast.

Re: 2018 England tour to Australia? : Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:08 pm  

Cronus wrote:

2003
8 Nov: Great Britain 22-18 Australia, JJB Stadium, Wigan: 24,614
15 Nov: Great Britain 23-20 Australia, Kingston Communications Stadium, Hull: 22,152
22 Nov: Great Britain 12-18 Australia, McAlpine Stadium, Huddersfield: 24,126

yeh give us a series win, we certainly didn't deserve the whitewash that year!

Re: 2018 England tour to Australia? : Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:10 pm  

Cronus wrote:

2003
8 Nov: Great Britain 22-18 Australia, JJB Stadium, Wigan: 24,614
15 Nov: Great Britain 23-20 Australia, Kingston Communications Stadium, Hull: 22,152
22 Nov: Great Britain 12-18 Australia, McAlpine Stadium, Huddersfield: 24,126

We won a series! Superb! In your face convicts.

I must also have been much drunker than I remembered on 15th Nov, 11 years ago.

Re: 2018 England tour to Australia? : Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:22 pm  

Cronus wrote:

Ok, so 1982 wasn't hugely attended - but the 3rd game was a dead rubber and the attendances for Hull and Wigan are actually comparable to the 2001 and 2003 Ashes. In fact, the 26k at Hull is higher than any game in 2001/3.

Meanwhile, the Ashes tours 86, 90 & 94 still have 3 of the highest ever attendances versus Australia in the UK, the lowest attendance being the dead rubber at Central Park in 1986. Interesting that the highest standalone attendances since 1998 were also as Great Britain, in 2004, and that switching to England we've needed double-headers or finals to break the 30k mark.

I'm certainly not anti-SL, but those tours remain some of the greatest sporting events I've seen - certainly 1990 and 1994. It's a crying shame they have been lost, though the inclusion of NZ and other countries in the Four Nations has been a huge positive, and the last few international tournaments have been outstanding. Where do we go from here? I'd love the return of Ashes tours (perhaps Aus vs top 3 SL & 3 x tests), but I'm not sure there's room for them any more unless we shake things up (again), upset a few people and make room.

1986
25 Oct: Great Britain 16-38 Australia Old Trafford, Manchester: 50,583
8 Nov: Great Britain 4-34 Australia, Elland Road, Leeds: 30,808
22 Nov: Great Britain 15-24 Australia, Central Park, Wigan: 20,169
1990
27 Oct: Great Britain 19-12 Australia, Wembley Stadium, London: 54,569
10 Nov: Great Britain 10-14 Australia, Old Trafford, Manchester: 46,615
24 Nov: Great Britain 0-14 Australia, Elland Road, Leeds: 32,500
1994
22 Oct: Great Britain 8-4 Australia, Wembley Stadium, London: 57,034
5 Nov: Great Britain 8-38 Australia, Old Trafford, Manchester: 43,930
15 Nov: Great Britain 4-23 Australia, Elland Road, Leeds: 39,468

Post-SL
2001
11 Nov: Great Britain 20-12 Australia, McAlpine Stadium, Huddersfield: 21,458
17 Nov: Great Britain 12-40 Australia, Reebok Stadium, Bolton: 22,152
24 Nov: Great Britain 8-28 Australia, JJB Stadium, Wigan: 25,011
2003
8 Nov: Great Britain 22-18 Australia, JJB Stadium, Wigan: 24,614
15 Nov: Great Britain 23-20 Australia, Kingston Communications Stadium, Hull: 22,152
22 Nov: Great Britain 12-18 Australia, McAlpine Stadium, Huddersfield: 24,126

Tri/Four Nations:
30 Oct 2004: Great Britain 8-12 Australia, City of Manchester Stadium, Manchester: 38,572
13 Nov 2004: Great Britain 24–12 Australia, JJB Stadium, Wigan: 25,004
27 Nov 2004: Great Britain 4-44 Australia, Elland Road, Leeds: 39,120 (final)
5 Nov 2005: Great Britain 6-20 Australia, JJB Stadium, Wigan: 25,004
19 Nov 2005: Great Britain 26-14 Australia, Galpharm Stadium, Huddersfield: 19,232
31 Oct 2009: England 16-26 Australia, DW Stadium, Wigan: 23,123
14 Nov 2009: England 16-46 Australia, Elland Road, Leeds: 31,042 (final)
5 Nov 2011: England 20-36 Australia, Wembley Stadium, London: 42,344 (double header)
19 Nov 2011: England 8-30 Australia, Elland Road, Leeds: 34,174 (final)
26 Oct 2013: England 20-28 Australia, Millennium Stadium, Cardiff: 45,052 (double header)

I take your point but look at some of the attendances for the club games many are significantly lower than 10k. The test series are a must but a second string touring side putting 30+ points past a clubs side I can't see how that benefits anyone. If there were no other way of seeing the tourists then yes but grounds like Wembley were significantly under capacity.

Crowds during SL suffered as a 40 year inability to compete with the Aussies when it really mattered continued.

Re: 2018 England tour to Australia? : Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:51 pm  

SirStan wrote:

We won a series! Superb! In your face convicts.

I must also have been much drunker than I remembered on 15th Nov, 11 years ago.

Biff Tannen wrote:

yeh give us a series win, we certainly didn't deserve the whitewash that year!

Re: 2018 England tour to Australia? : Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:23 pm  

ThePrinter wrote:

I don't really get the whole ''it should still be GB not England" thing. It's not like RU (don't wet your pants Gutterfax) where the Lions are truly made up of a mixture of Eng/Welsh/Scot/Irish players. We could've kept it as GB but the team lineups for the last several years wouldn't have changed at all.

Only reason seems noslagtic, nothing that would actually sell the series more.

I disagree. Nostalgia probably would help sell the series. I, and many, many RL fans have hugely fond memories of Great Britain that have never been matched by England, and I would certainly buy into the GB brand again. The classic series, the great moments, the iconic shirt, the history of GB as a whole. The Rorke's Drift Test, the Battle of Brisbane and Prescott's broken arm, Melbourne 1992, Old Trafford 1990, Mike Gregory's try, Edwards on Clyde, Davies' try, Phil Ford "he's a stepper", Goulding and McDermott taking on the Aussies at Old Trafford 1994 - and much more. England RL just doesn't have that heritage.

For example, I've never bought an England shirt and probably never will, but I've had a few GB shirts and bought a classic 2003 shirt fairly recently.

The theory that playing only as Home Nations helps develop the smaller nations is erroneous. In fact, all that happens is that the best players tend to all opt for England, whereas in the GB days the GB squad could also strengthen their home nations. Players such as Cunningham, Harris, Sullivan, Atcheson, Carvell, Cowie, Eyres, Skerrett - all RL lads who played for GB, and for Wales in the World Cup - how many would have opted for England if GB hadn't existed, and therefore been lost to Wales? Quite a few I'd guess. Others such as Connolly, McDermott, Horne, Gilmour, O'Connor, Joynt, Aston, Ford - all played for GB and a Home Nation other than England at some point. I've not included RU converts for obvious reasons.

I'm not saying swathes of England-qualified players would suddenly toddle off to the countries of their ancestry, in fact looking at the current squad it's unlikely, but at the moment England is the team the best British players aspire to, which for me only serves to weaken the rest.

Either way, until there are RL competitions in the Home Nations their international sides are little more than a token effort and will not develop significantly. That should be the priority, not the occasional low key international tournament and few World Cup games whenever the RLIF decide to arrange a competition.

Re: 2018 England tour to Australia? : Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:26 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

These tours were so popular - check the attendances!! We have had this discussion before 1982 Aussies were the greatest side that ever toured this country look at the crowds

6 games including one international attracted crowds of less than 10K
3 games had crowds < 11k
The three internationals 26k Hull, 23k Wigan, 17k Headingley

Your view of how good the international game was in its heyday simply don't stack up - without a strong club game where do the players come from to form the international side?

If we hadn't have started SL we would still be part time playing against a FT Aussie side. How could those games have ever been competitive it would have been like England playing France - the international game really would have been a joke.

So you think tours will return the game to its glory days - the game was in such good order prior to SL!! So how do you suggest these tours are conducted - we return to winter rugby?

I find it easy to agree with most of your posts Sal, but you are wrong to state that the 1982 tourists came when rep RL was in its heyday.

You would need to go back at least another 25 years for that period to be exact.

That was when we really did see well contested and bitter rivalry games enacted and they were brilliant for the fans, who DID turn up in great numbers, both for the tests and, the matches played against the clubs also.