[Kosh]

Re: The Queen and Martin McGuinness : Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:44 am  

Dita's Slot Meter wrote:

:lol: ......Must say chaps, I'm loving the one-eyed, blinkered view of Irish history we've got on this thread.

Almost as amusing as the comparison between McGuiness and Mandela.

Dita's Slot Meter wrote:

Whilst some of you seem to think the Queen should have had some murderous animosity towards McGuiness, I'll argue that he is equally as valid to feel the same.

Really. How many members of McGuiness's family was she personally involved in killing?

Re: The Queen and Martin McGuinness : Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:45 am  

Durham Giant wrote:

Ha ha. The ANC were a ruthless organisation and Mandela was the head of it. Necklacing was a regular form of dealing with dubious Africans and it was lot less civilised than kneecapping.
Umkhonto we sizwe were not a small prayer meeting preaching non violence
Whether Mandela was direvctly involved in their activities is irrelevant he was the spokesman and head of a terrorist organisation no different to McGuinness.

The situation in NI is directly comparable to Apartheid except it was less overt and presented more subtley. The situation in NI was not just a bit of vote rigging and Gerrymandered boundaries. It stopped catholics getting middle to senior jobs in the civil service and local government, proper housing and acess to resources. You could not get a job in the biggest employers in NI at Shorts or Harland and Wolf. Less money was spent on infrastructure and education. Look at Coleraine university built in a protestant area rather than in NIs second city Derry so that it could be a protestant university etc etc.

And as for your argumenta bout Wilson etc it is rubbish NO British government at the time was prepared to take on the Loyalists hence the success of the UWC strike.

Dont start rewriting history juts to excuse British actions.

It is always easier to support freedom fighters when they are not fighting against your country etc.

I'm not arguing against the NI Catholic's grievances, I never have.
I do think that McGuinness's gangsters killing random innocents was wrong, totally wrong.

Nelson Mandela has never, ever been evidencially linked with necklacing, not least because he was in jail for 27 years.
Tutu actually risked his own life to save one victim.
Even Winnie Mandela (whom I loathed) only "appeared" to condone it (however, I'm not going to defend her, she had plenty to be ashamed of).
Necklacing was actually condemned by the ANC.
So, I'm sorry, I cannot accept your similarity between Mandela and McGuinness.

Kneecapping in NI was a routine punishment, not for being on the other side per se but as part of the IRAs gangsterism and power retention, rather like the Kray regime in the East End of London, whereas the (inexcusible) necklacing in SA was largely part of mob rule.

Either way, we can agree on the step in the right direction that the handshake represents.

[Durham Giant]

Re: The Queen and Martin McGuinness : Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:00 am  

El Barbudo wrote:

I'm not arguing against the NI Catholic's grievances, I never have.
I do think that McGuinness's gangsters killing random innocents was wrong, totally wrong.

Nelson Mandela has never, ever been evidencially linked with necklacing, not least because he was in jail for 27 years.
Tutu actually risked his own life to save one victim.
Even Winnie Mandela (whom I loathed) only "appeared" to condone it (however, I'm not going to defend her, she had plenty to be ashamed of).
Necklacing was actually condemned by the ANC.
So, I'm sorry, I cannot accept your similarity between Mandela and McGuinness.
Kneecapping in NI was a routine punishment, not for being on the other side per se but as part of the IRAs gangsterism and power retention, rather like the Kray regime in the East End of London, whereas the (inexcusible) necklacing in SA was largely part of mob rule.

Either way, we can agree on the step in the right direction that the handshake represents.

A quick scan of Wikipedia shows the following. Change Mandela to McGuinness and SA to NI and there is not much difference.

Umkhonto we Sizwe (or MK), translated "Spear of the Nation," was the armed wing of the African National Congress (ANC), co-founded by Nelson Mandela, which fought against the South African apartheid government.

Nelson Mandela said.Firstly, we believed that as a result of Government policy, violence by the African people had become inevitable, and that unless responsible leadership was given to canalize and control the feelings of our people, there would be outbreaks of terrorism which would produce an intensity of bitterness and hostility between the various races of this country which is not produced even by war. Secondly, we felt that without violence there would be no way open to the African people to succeed in their struggle against the principle of white supremacy. All lawful modes of expressing opposition to this principle had been closed by legislation, and we were placed in a position in which we had either to accept a permanent state of inferiority, or to defy the Government. We chose to defy the law. We first broke the law in a way which avoided any recourse to violence; when this form was legislated against, and then the Government resorted to a show of force to crush opposition to its policies, only then did we decide to answer violence with violence."

Landmark events in MK's military activity inside South Africa consisted of actions designed to intimidate the ruling power. In 1983, the Church Street bomb was detonated in Pretoria near the SA Air Force Headquarters, resulting in 19 fatalities and 217 persons injured. During the next 10 years, a series of bombings occurred in South Africa, conducted mainly by the military wing of the African National Congress. In the Amanzimtoti bomb on the Natal South Coast in 1985, five civilians were killed and 40 were injured when MK cadre Andrew Sibusiso Zondo detonated an explosive in a rubbish bin at a shopping centre. In a submission to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC), the ANC stated that Zondo acted in anger at a recent SADF raid in Lesotho.[9]

A bomb was detonated in a bar on the Durban beach-front in 1986, killing three civilians and injuring 69. Robert McBride received the death penalty for this bombing which became known as the "Magoo's Bar bombing". Although the subsequent Truth and Reconciliation Committee called it a "gross violation of human rights", McBride received amnesty and became a police officer.

In 1987, an explosion outside a Johannesburg court killed three people and injured 10; a court in Newcastle had been attacked in a similar way the previous year, injuring 24. In 1987, a bomb exploded at a military command centre in Johannesburg, killing one person and injuring 68 military personnel.

The bombing campaign continued with attacks on a series of soft targets, including a bank in Roodepoort in 1988, in which four were killed and 18 injured. Also in 1988, in a bomb detonation outside a magistrate’s court killed three. At the Ellis Park rugby stadium in Johannesburg, a car bomb, killed two and injured 37. A multitude[citation needed] of bombs in "Wimpy Bar" fast food outlets and supermarkets occurred during the late 1980s, killing and wounding many people. Wimpy were specifically targeted because of their perceived rigid enforcements of many Apartheid-era laws, including excluding people of colour from their restaurants. Several other bombings occurred, with smaller numbers of casualties.

The suggestion that there is no evidence to link Mandela to any killings and this makes him any better than McGuiness is laughable.

Show me any evidence that directly links McGuinness to any kilings. I know he was head of the IRA but Mandela was the head of the ANC .

They were both freedom fighters or terrorsits depending on your viewpoint.

The fact that one fought aginst whitey 3000 miles away and the other fought against the British on your doorstep is the only real difference.

Re: The Queen and Martin McGuinness : Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:52 am  

Dita's Slot Meter wrote:

:lol: ......Must say chaps, I'm loving the one-eyed, blinkered view of Irish history we've got on this thread.

To be fair, McGuiness has as much to be peeved about concerning recent history than the Queen or Prince Philip.....Don't forget that it was HER army that carried out innocent slaughter on Bloody Sunday....I don't think our boys were really heroes on that day, were they???

Despite what some of you think, I thought the actions of BOTH McGuiness and the Queen were commendable yesterday.....Whilst some of you seem to think the Queen should have had some murderous animosity towards McGuiness, I'll argue that he is equally as valid to feel the same.

Love how all you Plastic Paddys are forever chelping on about Bloody Sunday. If you are going to take part in a banned parade and finish off the day by lobbing bricks,nail and petrol bombs, and various missiles at armed soldiers, then you have to expect some consequences.Granted, you shouldn't really expect to be shot, after all, gratuitous slaughter of innocent civilians is supposed to the preserve of your bold freedom fighters!

The Paras and the Royal Anglians should have shown some restraint, despite the provocation and reports of Martin and his Thompson machine gun. Simply applying traditional NI methods, ie grab the nearest little scrot who has been throwing rocks or a petrol bomb, take him around the side of the Landie or Pig, and knock the crap out of him should have sufficed. Instant karma, and saves wasting lots of peoples time in paperwork, court appearances etc.

That said, the figures show for the Troubles, 363 killed by the British Military.....1016 by Protestant Paramilitaries......and 2060 by Republicans. I think we can allow the Brit Army a bit of leeway for having a bad day at the Londonderry office, way back then in 1972.

However, back to Martin. If I (and here I include that fine upstanding terrorist Gerry Adams) was on the IRA Army Council, only to be told that of the total number of catholics killed (1523) over 25% were by Republicans! You can see why the man is peeved. Even by bog trotting standards that is embarrassing, and is it any wonder he took himself, and Gerry off to Stormont?

And you have to give them credit for the excellent PR reinvention of themselves...

In one bound, Paramilitaries to Parliamentarian.

Re: The Queen and Martin McGuinness : Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:58 am  

Most of my Irish mates back in the 80's wanted someone to take the North and sink it in the middle of the Atlantic - Orangemen, Republicans and all.

[Durham Giant]

Re: The Queen and Martin McGuinness : Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:00 pm  

rumpelstiltskin wrote:

Love how all you Plastic Paddys are forever chelping on about Bloody Sunday. If you are going to take part in a banned parade and finish off the day by lobbing bricks,nail and petrol bombs, and various missiles at armed soldiers, then you have to expect some consequences.Granted, you shouldn't really expect to be shot, after all, gratuitous slaughter of innocent civilians is supposed to the preserve of your bold freedom fighters!

The Paras and the Royal Anglians should have shown some restraint, despite the provocation and reports of Martin and his Thompson machine gun. Simply applying traditional NI methods, ie grab the nearest little scrot who has been throwing rocks or a petrol bomb, take him around the side of the Landie or Pig, and knock the crap out of him should have sufficed. Instant karma, and saves wasting lots of peoples time in paperwork, court appearances etc.

That said, the figures show for the Troubles, 363 killed by the British Military.....1016 by Protestant Paramilitaries......and 2060 by Republicans. I think we can allow the Brit Army a bit of leeway for having a bad day at the Londonderry office, way back then in 1972.

However, back to Martin. If I (and here I include that fine upstanding terrorist Gerry Adams) was on the IRA Army Council, only to be told that of the total number of catholics killed (1523) over 25% were by Republicans! You can see why the man is peeved. Even by bog trotting standards that is embarrassing, and is it any wonder he took himself, and Gerry off to Stormont?

And you have to give them credit for the excellent PR reinvention of themselves...

In one bound, Paramilitaries to Parliamentarian.

Possibly why those demostrating on Bloody Sunday thought to hell with this non violence stuff im joining the Pira and then served some instant Karma to those same paras at Warrenpoint

[DaveO]

Re: The Queen and Martin McGuinness : Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:50 pm  

El Barbudo wrote:

Kneecapping in NI was a routine punishment, not for being on the other side per se but as part of the IRAs gangsterism and power retention......

This is what always springs to mind when the term "freedom fighters" is used with reference the IRA. They were every bit as much a bunch of crooks as freedom fighters. The royalists paramilitaries were no different either.

Re: The Queen and Martin McGuinness : Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:48 pm  

Kosh wrote:

Really. How many members of McGuiness's family was she personally involved in killing?

You can't be a head of state, and take all the luxuries that the role brings with it, and not take the responsibilities that it brings.

One of those responsibilities is that the British Forces are HER forces and do their work in her name.....If some of their work is killing innocents, who are protesting about the injustice that HER government is imposing on them, then I'm afraid she is a very legitimate target.

[Kosh]

Re: The Queen and Martin McGuinness : Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:10 pm  

Dita's Slot Meter wrote:

You can't be a head of state, and take all the luxuries that the role brings with it, and not take the responsibilities that it brings.

One of those responsibilities is that the British Forces are HER forces and do their work in her name.....If some of their work is killing innocents, who are protesting about the injustice that HER government is imposing on them, then I'm afraid she is a very legitimate target.

So you reckon that a figurehead with no actual political power is directly comparable to someone who either plants bombs that kill innocents or directly orders that to be done with the specific intention of killing innocents?

Your moral compass is buggered.

Re: The Queen and Martin McGuinness : Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:53 pm  

Kosh wrote:

So you reckon that a figurehead with no actual political power is directly comparable to someone who either plants bombs that kill innocents or directly orders that to be done with the specific intention of killing innocents?

Your moral compass is buggered.

Yes I do.....Rather than exposing my moral compass, it probably highlights the absurd idea of a posh bird living in a palace, supposedly ruling a country??

Surely you can't enjoy the luxury of being head of the Armed Forces, without bearing some responsibility for their occasional barbaric actions??