Re: Latest financial situation - all posts here : Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:06 pm  

mat wrote:

bulls if anything employ too few backroom staff. all the community staff are actually employed by bulls foundation which is a seperate business entity to the main club so arent a factor. Reason we have a big payroll each month is because there are a lot of casual staff employed on matchdays due to the sheer size of the stadium. In terms of actual salaried staff that a administrator could make redundant to save money theres not much in way of savings to be made. If we do end up going into admin I fully expect us to lose players.

agreed mat. In 2006 when Caisely resigned as chairman, having taken on in 2002 what he described as the significant increase in overheads of Odsal, those "stadium" employees numbered 51.5 (2002 - 23 (tho may be pro rata full time equivalents so double that may be more realistic)), and the admin marketing and shop employees numbered 11, 9 and 3 respectively. In 2010 the equivalent figures were 85 for the stadium, and 4, 4 and 7 respectivley. So we have a third of the admin and a half of the marketing employees when Caisley left, but being generous nearly twice the number of stadium staff. to look after a black hole called Odsal. so save overheads by moving from Odsal, or lose our young players so we can pay casual stadium staff, which is the better long term option? If it was me I would f@ck over BMC and the RFL by going into admin with a prepack to reassemble with investors money and a bright young team, higher ticket prices and corresponding lower numbers at a stadium that was not a relic predating the industrial revolution. Or use the threat of that to negotiate the desired end result without admin.

Adey

I think following my earlier post that the ball is in Gurus Beard's court, to explain how Hood was going to avoid VAT Notice 701/45, why the figures dont stack up, etc etc. Only membership of clubs founded for charitable purposes get exemption from VAT, if its a commercial business no chance. Even charitable clubs have to pay VAT on any commercial element of their outputs. Of course, it could be that you are not challenging GB because he is in fact your alter-ego, Jekyl to your Hyde, whimsy and fiction to your facts and figures, but you both have in common a certain use of language, and a inclination to say you know the full facts but cant tell anybody any detail to confirm your knowledge.

Just joking Adey.

Gurus Beard, put up please. Explain how the club thought it could get around VAT Notice 701/45. What was the name of the VAT consultant that sold the scheme to Hood?

Re: Latest financial situation - all posts here : Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:18 pm  

bobsmyuncle wrote:

To clarify a point about VAT on Season Tickets
Generally the Invoice date is the time of supply for VAT purposes and VAT is due to be paid/reclaimed on that date.
BUT
Where season tickets are sold without the issue of a VAT invoice, such payments are deemed to be deposits against future supplies. Only then when the supply is made will VAT be due.
In this respect the supply would be for each and every league home game.

Thus the Bulls selling (say) 10,000 season tickets @ (say) £100 = £1,000,000 attracts no VAT at the time of sale.

As and when a season ticket holder turns up for a home match then the club has provided the supply and VAT is due in the proportion- Cost of his/her season ticket divided by the number of home games their season ticket covered.
Should a season ticket holder not turn up then no VAT is due as the supply was available but not used.

Which VAT notice or guidance note is this based on? I cannot see the vat man saying that the club do not have to pay vat because someone did not turn up, as the club will be claiming all the input tax against that supply regardless of however many turned up. Or are you saying that the VAT man requires the club to pro rata the input tax according to the number of season ticket holders that turn up? and which vat notice/guidance note is this in?

I can accept that it is seen as a future supply, so the vat would be proportioned over the number of home games, but that is it. If someone doesnt turn up, that is their problem, not the vat mans. So VAT notice please, if you supply it then I will eat my VAT. which isnt much, as I dont turn up for work very often.

Re: Latest financial situation - all posts here : Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:27 pm  

Early Bath wrote:

This thread is far better than anything on TV, Radio ot the Newspapers and its quite clear both sides of the divide posting quite openly.

I have certainly improved my vocabulary & literacy with such gems as ' calumny ' and 'mendacious' to name but two.

If he wasnt dead I would have sworn that Leonard Sachs from the Good Olde Days was active on this Forum.

Keep it going lads please - excellent stuff - and we dont know the ending to this Who Done it.

It certainly is entertaining, but do not mistake the verbiage, sorry vocabulary, for anything other than superficial gloss for the bull sh@t that usually lies beneath those words.

Re: Latest financial situation - all posts here : Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:03 am  

According to a report on the BBC site:

"Bradford Bulls could be forced to go into administration within a fortnight after being hit by a winding-up order over unpaid tax.
The club owes HM Revenue & Customs £90,000 in payroll tax, plus £250,000 in VAT from the sale of the stadium."

"The figures were passed to BBC Radio Leeds by Brendan Guilfoyle of The P&A Partnership, the company brought in by the club to review the state of its finances."

The VAT is therefore from the lease sale, and the PAYE is from 2012 wages.

There is no mention at all of VAT to do with memberships. Why is that, then? Doesn't Mr. Guilfoyle know? If the above is true, then it is surprising that HMRC have seemingly not included it in their demand.

Re: Latest financial situation - all posts here : Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:06 am  

With filed accounts stating a Turnover of £4.6mil in 2010 droppong to £3.9m in 2011, with the same overheads it took no brain specialist to guess what was going to give. The RFL really looked into the accounts when issuing licences out didn't they?

The £500k pledged has been and gone. YOU were told it was a bottomless pit you your pledging to and still did it. Where's the return and loyalty from the Bradford Bulls now to the fans, its gone on players wages for the last 2.5 months. You were fools to pledge, it was better to buy shares in a Newco, Well at least the Boss of Thomas Cook will be happy sitting on his £15mil wages over the last 4 years while 500 staff are made redundant

Re: Latest financial situation - all posts here : Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:40 am  

Homer Simpson wrote:

blahblahblahblah... Well at least the Boss of Thomas Cook will be happy sitting on his £15mil wages over the last 4 years while 500 staff are made redundant

You;re on the wrong forum. I think you want travelagency.con

Re: Latest financial situation - all posts here : Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:03 am  

Mirfieldbull wrote:

Adeybull's comment is spot on!! These guys (Guru's Beard and Incrdibullman) are clearly insiders on either side of the BOD divide - so one of you is at best being economical with the truth or at worst lying to a group of people that rescued this club 2 months ago.

Shame on you both - we deserve better!

IF existing and/or former directors are trading insults on an internet forum, then we really are in a mess.

Re: Latest financial situation - all posts here : Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:32 am  

Homer Simpson wrote:

You were fools to pledge, it was better to buy shares in a Newco,

No we weren't we were doing something that a lot of people had reservations about out of loyalty. A lot of people not even connected with the club gave to the cause because they were loyal to the sport.

We'd have been fools had we pledged after knowing what we know now but hindsight is a wonderful thing. It's easy to make comments like this two months down the line.

Re: Latest financial situation - all posts here : Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:34 am  

This is t0$$ this. Where are these mythical investors? Where is this package to secure the long term future? To say I am p1$$ed off would be a huge understatement.

Re: Latest financial situation - all posts here : Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:03 am  

debaser wrote: This is t0$$ this. Where are these mythical investors? Where is this package to secure the long term future? To say I am p1$$ed off would be a huge understatement. This could be the latest reason but it doesn't explain it that well http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/18455849

debaser wrote: This is t0$$ this. Where are these mythical investors? Where is this package to secure the long term future? To say I am p1$$ed off would be a huge understatement. This could be the latest reason but it doesn't explain it that well http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/18455849