Re: Sweet smell of success....... : Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:04 pm  

For me, as a player of both League and Union I can see why each code has the scrums it does. In Union a large portion of the team is there to win scrums. At amateur level some players only play to have scrums, the rest of the games passes them by pretty much.

In league, the scrums allow the forwards who are doing all the work to get a breather. As good as the athletes in our game are, I wouldn't be expecting the likes of Peacock and Graham to do 30+ tackles and 20+ carries as well as contesting scrums. I couldn't play league if I had to take part in contested scrums. I wouldn't have the energy. They work in Union, I don't think they'd work in League. Far too much energy wasted

Re: Sweet smell of success....... : Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:33 pm  

Gotcha wrote:

No, that wasn't what I said. I said I did not agree with a draft system, and that it was the stupidest of concepts, and that players should have a choice in where they go. If that happens to be a top club, then so be it, but playing for a poorly run club at the bottom of the league each year is no way to develop talent.

If you take your point to its logical conclusion there is no way for the lower clubs to progress - they need to be able to attract better young players. In Lancashire all the top youngsters will want to go to either Wigan or Saints and in Yorkshire Leeds how do you ever even up the competition? The rich get richer and the poor get poorer? You end up with a competition with only 3/4 realistic winners a bit like the PL where the rest are you trying to avoid relegation.

Re: Sweet smell of success....... : Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:36 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

If you take your point to its logical conclusion there is no way for the lower clubs to progress - they need to be able to attract better young players. In Lancashire all the top youngsters will want to go to either Wigan or Saints and in Yorkshire Leeds how do you ever even up the competition? The rich get richer and the poor get poorer? You end up with a competition with only 3/4 realistic winners a bit like the PL where the rest are you trying to avoid relegation.

You do what the likes of Sheffield and Wakefield have done and start looking at players from other regions. We have had a good number of juniors and young players go to either team, and whilst the talent is not so condensed it is still there.

Re: Sweet smell of success....... : Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:13 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

So you are saying no change in the make up of the top sides as they will simply mop up the best talent through a centralised system. I n fact it could be even worse with a certain team taking youngsters they don't need to prevent other sides getting them

That happens anyway. I seem to recall one year a while back Warrington had something like 30 kids on their Academy programme, having basically mopped up anyone in the surrounding area with a bit of ability.

You're always going to get kids who want to go play for a particular club because they have some sort of attachment to it - it's the nearest, it's the one they supported as a kid, it's the one a member of their family already plays for etc. Not every junior in the country wants to go and play for Wigan, Saints or Leeds for example, and those clubs aren't going to want every junior that is available to them.

Re: Sweet smell of success....... : Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:25 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

If Leeds prioritise attacking how come our structures and options are so bad?

Defence becomes easier if the attack doesn't pose the threats it should. Whenever I see England/GB play Australia we always seem to struggle with simple decoy runners and two men plays? Look how many times Wigan are able to create overlaps out wide through very structured attack that should be easy to defend against.

It depends what type of attack you've gone for. It also depends on other factors such as the players at your disposal, your teams momentum and where you start and how you end your sets. Attack isn't just something you can practice in isolation and you'll suddenly start scoring tries. It's dependent on a lot of the other parts of your game working.

As for Leeds, they've gone for an attacking approach of trying to isolate specific defenders and beat them either with short passes or footwork. Wigan have gone for a far more structured 3rd man approach on virtually every single play. It's a play that is effective but can be neutralised when defences adapt, as they did to the Saints version of it a few years back. It's also a play that worked better when combined with a player like Tomkins on the end of it to add some unpredictability.
Our attack, in my opinion, suffers not from a lack of attacking players or practice but from our forwards inability to wear down a defence and to provide sufficient support runs.

Re: Sweet smell of success....... : Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:29 pm  

Andy Gilder wrote:

That happens anyway. I seem to recall one year a while back Warrington had something like 30 kids on their Academy programme, having basically mopped up anyone in the surrounding area with a bit of ability.

You're always going to get kids who want to go play for a particular club because they have some sort of attachment to it - it's the nearest, it's the one they supported as a kid, it's the one a member of their family already plays for etc. Not every junior in the country wants to go and play for Wigan, Saints or Leeds for example, and those clubs aren't going to want every junior that is available to them.

They may not want every youngster but they will want the best and herein lies the problem - the lesser clubs are always getting the lesser youngsters and we have a catch 22. It is no surprise that only 3 clubs have won the GF since 2005 compare that to the NRL where 6 teams have won it. More worrying is that only 6 teams have ever got to the final in 16 years. Somehow we need to strengthen the quality of more teams.

Re: Sweet smell of success....... : Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:39 pm  

Him wrote:

It depends what type of attack you've gone for. It also depends on other factors such as the players at your disposal, your teams momentum and where you start and how you end your sets. Attack isn't just something you can practice in isolation and you'll suddenly start scoring tries. It's dependent on a lot of the other parts of your game working.

As for Leeds, they've gone for an attacking approach of trying to isolate specific defenders and beat them either with short passes or footwork. Wigan have gone for a far more structured 3rd man approach on virtually every single play. It's a play that is effective but can be neutralised when defences adapt, as they did to the Saints version of it a few years back. It's also a play that worked better when combined with a player like Tomkins on the end of it to add some unpredictability.
Our attack, in my opinion, suffers not from a lack of attacking players or practice but from our forwards inability to wear down a defence and to provide sufficient support runs.

Fair points - the second man play with decoy runners does seem to open up most defences - still works today yet its a move that has been used for years.

If you look at teams like Melbourne who perfected the in and out play with Smith, Cronk and Slater these moves work if they can be executed with precision. A great attacking play is almost undefendable if properly executed.

The problem with Leeds is they don't have the skill level nor the speed to execute these plays - hence why they struggle to score inside the opponents 20. They depend on attacking from deep and individual one on one wins, this is easily nullified as we have seen in recent years.

Re: Sweet smell of success....... : Fri Oct 17, 2014 10:28 am  

The Eagle wrote:

For me, as a player of both League and Union I can see why each code has the scrums it does. In Union a large portion of the team is there to win scrums. At amateur level some players only play to have scrums, the rest of the games passes them by pretty much.

True. In the amateur game as you go down the levels the error counts increase and winning scrums becomes critical as there are so many. If you can't hold your own ball then effectively your opposition can make as many mistakes as they want and still get the ball back. Our club first team has tons of pace and mobility, defends well but has a tiny front row in an area where they usually grow them the size of tractors. Having midgets in the forwards in the Wescountry is like having a 3 inch c*** in a porn film.