Re: 4th Spot - the poisoned chalice? : Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:03 pm  

Teddy Picker wrote:

People seem to forget this part for some reason.

I know. It's very odd.

Let's say we come 5th, with Saints 4th. *If* we win our first round tie then, in the likeliest scenario, our next game, earlier designated "tough", is knockout against Saints AWAY.

Now let's say we come 4th, with Saints 5th. Best possible scenario, we beat Wigan/Wire and are one home tie away from the Grand Final. Worst case scenario, we lose the first game and our next game, earlier designated "very difficult", is knockout against Saints AT HOME.

So coming 5th, best case we play week 2 Saints away.

And coming 4th, worst case we play week 2 Saints at home.

How can you work out that finishing 5th is easier than finishing 4th?

Re: 4th Spot - the poisoned chalice? : Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:12 pm  

Teddy Picker wrote:

People seem to forget this part for some reason.

It was just the way it fell for leeds last year.

Re: 4th Spot - the poisoned chalice? : Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:19 pm  

In reality it depends on the form of the side you play in the playoffs.

Last year we played Hudds which were a team in decline when we were on the up. If we played saints this year given the run in they would probably be in good form. However if we were to play Catalan or Wire for example if they were to have an end of season decline it would be a much easier tie.

[Frosties.]

Re: 4th Spot - the poisoned chalice? : Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:38 pm  

Leeds - Wigan (A CC), Bradford (H), Wakefield (A), Hull KR (A), Widnes (H), Catalans (A), (CC - Final?), Salford (H), Huddersfield (A).

Warrington - Catalan (H), Huddersfield (A CC), Castleford (A), Bradford (H), Saints (A), Wigan (H), London (A), (CC - Final?), Huddersfield (H), Widnes (A).

Huddersfield - Warrington (A CC), Wakefield (H), St Helens (A), Catalan (H), Salford (A), Bradford (H), (CC - Final?), Warrington (A), Leeds (H).

Catalan - Warrington (A), Hull FC (H), St Helens (H), London (H), Huddersfield (A), Hull FC (A), Leeds (H), Castleford (A), Bradford (H).

St Helens - Catalan (A), Huddersfield (H), Warrington (H), Wakefield (A), Castleford (H), London (H), Wigan (A).

Wigan - Leeds (A CC), London (A), Castleford (H), Hull FC (H), Warrington (A), Salford (H), (CC - Final?), Hull KR (A), St Helens (H).

Hull FC - Catalan (A), Hull KR (A), Salford (H), Wigan (A), Catalans (H), Widnes (A), Bradford (A), Castleford (H).

Re: 4th Spot - the poisoned chalice? : Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:44 pm  

Frosties. wrote:

Leeds - Wigan (A CC), Bradford (H), Wakefield (A), Hull KR (A), Widnes (H), Catalans (A), (CC - Final?), Salford (H), Huddersfield (A).

Warrington - Catalan (H), Huddersfield (A CC), Castleford (A), Bradford (H), Saints (A), Wigan (H), London (A), (CC - Final?), Huddersfield (H), Widnes (A).

Huddersfield - Warrington (A CC), Wakefield (H), St Helens (A), Catalan (H), Salford (A), Bradford (H), (CC - Final?), Warrington (A), Leeds (H).

Catalan - Warrington (A), Hull FC (H), St Helens (H), London (H), Huddersfield (A), Hull FC (A), Leeds (H), Castleford (A), Bradford (H).

St Helens - Catalan (A), Huddersfield (H), Warrington (H), Wakefield (A), Castleford (H), London (H), Wigan (A).

Wigan - Leeds (A CC), London (A), Castleford (H), Hull FC (H), Warrington (A), Salford (H), (CC - Final?), Hull KR (A), St Helens (H).

Hull FC - Catalan (A), Hull KR (A), Salford (H), Wigan (A), Catalans (H), Widnes (A), Bradford (A), Castleford (H).

With all due respect, whats your point?

Re: 4th Spot - the poisoned chalice? : Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:22 am  

jarvis12345 wrote:

In reality it depends on the form of the side you play in the playoffs.

Last year we played Hudds which were a team in decline when we were on the up. If we played saints this year given the run in they would probably be in good form. However if we were to play Catalan or Wire for example if they were to have an end of season decline it would be a much easier tie.

It depends most importantly on attitude when reaching the Playoffs, had Leeds won 1 more regular season game (which we should of done considering we lost twice to Quins) Hudds would of finished 5th, does anyone reckon Hudds could of beaten Hull at home followed by winning at Headingley and HJ and reach the GF then beat the Saints, apart from the Hull game i doubt it very much.

The history of this now 'all desirable 5th' since 8 team Playoffs. Wakefield finished 5th in 2009 and crumbled poorly against an 8th place Catalan who only just snuck into the Playoffs that year. Hudds finished 5th in 2010, would of lost to Crusaders if one of the Crusaders players didn't get himself sin-binned near the end of the game, did manage to go to Warrington that year and win (but i think that has more to do with my point about backing up from a CC win which Wire had just won), they then lost in the final eliminators to Saints, but so did 4th place Leeds to Wigan so no real difference.

In 3 seasons that we've had the 8 team playoffs, the CC winners have won 1 out of 5 games, Wigan at home against Catalan. Warrington didn't make the playoffs in 2009 after losing 6 of their last 8 league games, if anything the CC is throwing the big curveball into how the Playoffs pan out, had Wigan lost in the earlier rounds of the Cup last year i reckon they would of won the GF instead or at least reached Old Trafford.
Leeds responded to CC Finals defeats firstly in 2010 by going to Wigan from 4th place and winning before losing out to a great Wigan defensive performance in the return game, we won in 2011 from 5th after losing the Cup again. Huddersfield however after losing the 2009 CC, and finishing higher in 3rd limped out with loses to Saints 15-2 and 8th place Catalan 16-6, scoring just 8 points in the 2 games. The difference? Attitude and confidence. The most impressive thing about Leeds' run last year was that they did it weeks after losing out on the one trophy that's alluded them yet again, i'm not sure any other team in SL could of recovered from that scenerio.

I want Leeds to finish 4th, hell i'd love for them to get up to 3rd but that looks to be a tough ask. So we'd have to go to Wigan away most likely if we get 4th, so what? We won there in 2010, we won at Halliwell Jones in 2011. It would be an extremely hard game to win but i doubt these Leeds players would be intimated by that prospect unlike some other clubs who'll finish in the top 8. Leeds win there and we are an 80 mins home game from reaching another GF, bring that on i say.

Leeds win from 5th might actually turn out to be the best thing for the Playoffs and the sport and not the embarrassment some have tried to make it out to be. If the teams finishing 5th-8th look back to 2011 and realise it can actually be done then we could have 8 teams all fighting for the prize instead of 3 or 4 teams with the others just happy to make up the numbers and an end to some of the big scores we've seen in the last few years in the Playoffs. No one thought it could be done from them positions 12 months ago (although i'm sure those people who feel the need to always look correct will claim that they knew it could happen all along).

[Frosties.]

Re: 4th Spot - the poisoned chalice? : Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:36 am  

jarvis12345 wrote:

With all due respect, whats your point?

The remaining fixtures to see who plays who and comparision for the top spots? If you see, Saints still have to play Warrington, Wigan, Catalans, Huddersfield. Leeds still have to play Catalans, Huddersfield, Bradford. Warrington still have to play Catalans, Wigan, Saints, Huddersfield, Bradford. Catalans still have to play Leeds, Warrington, Hull FC x2, Saints, Bradford. Looking at it this way you can see who they still have to play in the top half of the table, and who they can drop points to.

Re: 4th Spot - the poisoned chalice? : Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:00 am  

ThePrinter wrote:

Leeds win from 5th might actually turn out to be the best thing for the Playoffs and the sport and not the embarrassment some have tried to make it out to be. If the teams finishing 5th-8th look back to 2011 and realise it can actually be done then we could have 8 teams all fighting for the prize instead of 3 or 4 teams with the others just happy to make up the numbers and an end to some of the big scores we've seen in the last few years in the Playoffs. No one thought it could be done from them positions 12 months ago (although i'm sure those people who feel the need to always look correct will claim that they knew it could happen all along).

I agree wholeheartedly and it's something I've said on here a few times.

The playoffs were a damp squib last year and Leeds display at Warrington saved them. Too many teams are in the playoffs to make up the numbers. If they follow our example the whole intensity of the playoffs should lift, but I won't hold my breath.

Leeds winning from 5th should give all clubs in the playoffs the inspiration but how many will follow our lead?

Re: 4th Spot - the poisoned chalice? : Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:17 am  

The real point is that there is only one team that can win it from 5th, and that's Leeds. There are only 4 teams capable of winning the GF (Wigan, Warrington, St Helens and Leeds) and only one of them could finish outside the top four in the next few years. The fans of Catalans, Huddersfield and Hull FC will all think they can win the GF, but in reality they can't. All other teams are also rans who won't make any impact whatsoever on the playoffs.

Re: 4th Spot - the poisoned chalice? : Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:56 am  

If Catalan finish 2nd which is very possible looking at the fixtures then they have a great chance of getting to Old Trafford. 2 home times in the playoffs should they win there first game with a break in the middle meaning that they dont have to fly back to england until a possible GF. they have the players and the coach but the constant flying back and forth is not good preparation so a solid month without travelling would be good for them.