Re: Leeds' relegation form : Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:47 am  

Clearwing wrote:

I guess what I'm wondering is whether the unorthodoxy is now knocked out of them before they reach academy level. I don't get to see juniors play often but when I do it's apparent, even at very young ages, they are encouraged to play to structures far more than was once the case. I can understand the benefits; what I'm unsure of is the cost.

What's changed, or should have, is coaching should emphasise decision making. For years, and the style I grew up with, training was about running between cones and following instructions to pass to a player or a spot. There wasn't much thinking involved. Beyond the first level of skills work, coaching should include some element of decision making. Whether that's using 3 on 2 to teach pass and catch (you can teach any number of things with 3 on 2 drills) to more complex game scenarios.

A structure just puts players in positions and running lines, there should still be some decision making involved in variance to those positions and lines, and where the ball will go within that structure.

Re: Leeds' relegation form : Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:37 pm  

Andy Gilder wrote:

There's still scope for the "maverick" player who will do something off-the-cuff or unpredictable. However, when they get to higher levels they need to be able to produce that within a structure. The likes of Lee Briers, Danny Brough, Sam Tomkins etc manage to do that.

So your talented young player who has gone along at Under-13 and Under-15 level being unorthodox and getting away with it because they have the talent to do so, might get some of that knocked off them when they get to an Academy and it's not all about playing for fun with your mates any more.

When you've got other people depending on your performance to an extent to make a living, doing your own thing on the field is going to be tolerated less. That's not just a rugby league thing either, look at the likes of Mario Ballotelli for example. Talented player, but struggles to deliver it within a team structure where he's expected to be unselfish.

Nostalgia has a part to play here as well. I can't honestly say that the 70s, 80s or 90s were some sort of golden generation of flair players. Yes there were some around, but the game wasn't packed with them.

I'm not sure it's nostalgia to remember that in the 70s/80s literally every side had one ball-playing prop and a handling loose-forward, as well as at least one flair player in the halves. Now you can count the number of props (Huby) and 13s (O'Loughlin) in SL who fit that bill on the fingers of one finger.

Maybe it's coaching/development, maybe it's down to lack of space (any flair players nowadays seem to play at fullback, which definitely wasn't the case in the past).

Re: Leeds' relegation form : Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:06 pm  

craigizzard wrote:

I'm not sure it's nostalgia to remember that in the 70s/80s literally every side had one ball-playing prop and a handling loose-forward, as well as at least one flair player in the halves. Now you can count the number of props (Huby) and 13s (O'Loughlin) in SL who fit that bill on the fingers of one finger.

Maybe it's coaching/development, maybe it's down to lack of space (any flair players nowadays seem to play at fullback, which definitely wasn't the case in the past).

and many of those ball playing props were pretty rotund guys playing against pretty rotund guys, who would have been run out of the game these days.

The game has changed, it is much faster, each tackle is much harder, players are more professional and the do tackle in packs and wrap the ball up. We have in our game plenty of ball playing forwards and im not sure of any half that wouldnt say they had flair but we also have much better organised defences and defensive tactics to mitigate that.

Re: Leeds' relegation form : Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:30 pm  

Richie wrote:

What's changed, or should have, is coaching should emphasise decision making. For years, and the style I grew up with, training was about running between cones and following instructions to pass to a player or a spot. There wasn't much thinking involved. Beyond the first level of skills work, coaching should include some element of decision making. Whether that's using 3 on 2 to teach pass and catch (you can teach any number of things with 3 on 2 drills) to more complex game scenarios.

A structure just puts players in positions and running lines, there should still be some decision making involved in variance to those positions and lines, and where the ball will go within that structure.

The NRL have the most structured play you will see - the major difference is they are able to perform the basics really well something that is very sadly lacking in SL. Look at the passing from dummy half a really simple skill yet appallingly performed in most games in SL. Accuracy of passing in SL is terrible for an elite level - perhaps if the majority of the players could do the basics competently the standards would increase significantly - never mind decision making.

It is no surprise the Aussies dominate RL - they do the basics really really well.

[Ex-Swarcliffe Rhino]

Re: Leeds' relegation form : Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:04 pm  

^ If you do the basics right every time then you earn the right to go for the "flair" moves.

Relentless, punishing defence, a solid pack making good yards and an effective kicking game both long and short sounds easy, but its not.

Re: Leeds' relegation form : Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:00 pm  

craigizzard wrote:

I'm not sure it's nostalgia to remember that in the 70s/80s literally every side had one ball-playing prop and a handling loose-forward, as well as at least one flair player in the halves. Now you can count the number of props (Huby) and 13s (O'Loughlin) in SL who fit that bill on the fingers of one finger.

Maybe it's coaching/development, maybe it's down to lack of space (any flair players nowadays seem to play at fullback, which definitely wasn't the case in the past).

A back three (forwards), runner, ball player and tackler always works.
From a Wigan pov Laughton, Ashurst and Robinson.

Re: Leeds' relegation form : Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:18 pm  

Rogues Gallery wrote:

A back three (forwards), runner, ball player and tackler always works.
From a Wigan pov Laughton, Ashurst and Robinson.

....and Leeds has Eccles, Cookson and Crane/Heron.

Re: Leeds' relegation form : Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:45 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

The NRL have the most structured play you will see - the major difference is they are able to perform the basics really well something that is very sadly lacking in SL. Look at the passing from dummy half a really simple skill yet appallingly performed in most games in SL. Accuracy of passing in SL is terrible for an elite level - perhaps if the majority of the players could do the basics competently the standards would increase significantly - never mind decision making.

It is no surprise the Aussies dominate RL - they do the basics really really well.

....and you would be amazed how many players, at whatever level, think they don't need to learn and practice those basic skills.

Re: Leeds' relegation form : Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:56 am  

Richie wrote:

....and you would be amazed how many players, at whatever level, think they don't need to learn and practice those basic skills.

Tony Smith when he first came to Leeds spent a lot of time re-educating the players to perform the basic skills competently. I don't want to get into a debate about Buderus but his passing from the dummy half was to a different standard than either Diskin or Burrow.

Re: Leeds' relegation form : Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:04 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Tony Smith when he first came to Leeds spent a lot of time re-educating the players to perform the basic skills competently. I don't want to get into a debate about Buderus but his passing from the dummy half was to a different standard than either Diskin or Burrow.

Buderus is possibly the best pure #9 I can remember. Cameron Smith's a better all-round player, but doesn't do the 'core' #9 stuff as well as Buderus did.

Lunt is probably the best in SL at the moment.