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[Mintball]

Talking of "flawed economic theories", monetarism has been a disaster, Dally.

And spouting one of its central tenets – hence the reason for its obsession with low inflation* – does not help.

Keynesian ideas, used by central banks, had improved stability – but have been deregulated away because they don't tally with the neo-liberals and the monetarists.


* See Ha-Joon Chang on inflation in 23 Things They Don't Tell You About Capitalism.

[Chris28]

Dally wrote:

Politicians (whether it fits your blinkered narrative or not, largely Labour ones in this country) helped by deliberate policy to fuel a domestic property boom

Genuine question. Which actual Labour policy was that?

Mintball wrote:

Talking of "flawed economic theories", monetarism has been a disaster, Dally.

And spouting one of its central tenets – hence the reason for its obsession with low inflation* – does not help.

Keynesian ideas, used by central banks, had improved stability – but have been deregulated away because they don't tally with the neo-liberals and the monetarists.


* See Ha-Joon Chang on inflation in 23 Things They Don't Tell You About Capitalism.

Didn't the winter of discontent spell the end of the UK's experiment with Keynesian economic management? Hardly a success story. Like I said, dogma is crass and stupid. Politicians need to be flexible and change their thinking continually with the changing environment and not stick rigidly to "Keynesianism", "Monetarism", "Market Fundamentalism" or whatever economic theory is / was in vogue for decades at a time.

Chris28 wrote:

Genuine question. Which actual Labour policy was that?

The one that abolished Tory boom and bust by encouraging cheap credit? Were the Fed and BoE really acting independently of theor governments at all times?

[Chris28]

Dally wrote:

The one that abolished Tory boom and bust by encouraging cheap credit? Were the Fed and BoE really acting independently of theor governments at all times?

If by Fed, you mean US Federal Reserve, its a stretch to blame Labour for anything they did

It's quite possible to blame politicians for some of the mess we're in, but its a cheap jibe to suggest Labour are "largely" responsible

[Mintball]

Dally wrote:

The one that abolished Tory boom and bust by encouraging cheap credit? Were the Fed and BoE really acting independently of theor governments at all times?

This is an answer to being asked what specific policy caused the housing crisis and boom, as suggested here:

Dally wrote:

Politicians (whether it fits your blinkered narrative or not, largely Labour ones in this country) helped by deliberate policy to fuel a domestic property boom

Clueless.

[Mugwump]

SBR wrote:

I'm no expert but I'd guess it is usual to investigate the crime first. Then arrest people.

For you and me, perhaps. Elite elements of society? No.

Have you never heard the political maxim, "In this town you're innocent until investigated"?

[DaveO]

Dally wrote:

Didn't the winter of discontent spell the end of the UK's experiment with Keynesian economic management?

No. It was an ideological choice made by Thatcher. Things like that may have been the excuse but she would have done it anyway.

They are still doing it. The "reforms" to the NHS are purely ideologically driven. Even the "have a loan until you die then pay it off" scheme for elderly care is ideological. We already pay Tax and National Insurance so in theory we already pay for the care required. The trouble is the tax and n.i. take is not big enough to fund this and many other things so we are told (tuition fees being another example). So what you end up with is the individual paying for everything themselves (eventually to private companies brought in to take on the tasks - you just watch) and there is no state support. This is pure Tory ideology whereby income tax is reduced to paying for a runt of services you really can't privatise and the individual funds everything else.

However has your overall tax bill gone down due to the facts students now have to pay £9K a year in fees? No and neither has your local postman's but the "postman paying tax for the students education" was how this was sold. So we end up with being taxed pretty much as we were or taxed even more (VAT 20%, income tax thresholds left to be eroded by inflation) and we end up paying for what was once state provided ourselves anyway!

Pure Tory ideology.

DaveO wrote:

No. It was an ideological choice made by Thatcher. Things like that may have been the excuse but she would have done it anyway.

They are still doing it. The "reforms" to the NHS are purely ideologically driven. Even the "have a loan until you die then pay it off" scheme for elderly care is ideological. We already pay Tax and National Insurance so in theory we already pay for the care required. The trouble is the tax and n.i. take is not big enough to fund this and many other things so we are told (tuition fees being another example). So what you end up with is the individual paying for everything themselves (eventually to private companies brought in to take on the tasks - you just watch) and there is no state support. This is pure Tory ideology whereby income tax is reduced to paying for a runt of services you really can't privatise and the individual funds everything else.

However has your overall tax bill gone down due to the facts students now have to pay £9K a year in fees? No and neither has your local postman's but the "postman paying tax for the students education" was how this was sold. So we end up with being taxed pretty much as we were or taxed even more (VAT 20%, income tax thresholds left to be eroded by inflation) and we end up paying for what was once state provided ourselves anyway!

Pure Tory ideology.

So, as you say, tax has not gone down but the tax take is insufficient to pay for all these things. Indeed, with the ageing demographic profile in 20 - 30 years time the tax take will be nowhere near enough to remotely provide care. Are you advocating increasing taxes across the board? Personally, I favour basic rate income tax of c. 30% plus NI at, say, 10%. We need a grown up debate. Seems to me three main options (perhaps in combination):

1. Go the Swedish, etc route and increase taxes on everyone (especially the so called squeezed middle) to fund good state care.
2. People have to pay themselves - which will inevitably be paid for by employers - who will then prefer the State to take the burden (as is starting to happen in the USA).
3. Encourage married women not to work. We have a ridiculous situation whereby women pay people (usually less able than themselves) to look after their own children and are also no longer avaiable to look after ageing parents. This to me is the most sensible approach to take in any civilised society.

Gambling? What gambling?