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Re: Gildart Signs
Post Fri May 18, 2018 2:57 pm
Posted by Cherry_&_White on Fri May 18, 2018 2:57 pm
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Last Son of Wigan wrote:
Right ok...
Firstly I wouldn't classify my comments as a theory, they're an opinion. And of course, which is open for debate. Don't forget the context of my comments; which are that Bateman is worthy of the marquee (I think people aren't realistic about the marquee) and I do, in my opinion feel Bateman is better 'age for age' than Lockers.

You wanted facts? Don't forget Bateman was England academy captain in 2012 taking them onto a tour of Oz, in the same year he won the Albert Goldthorpe rookie of the year award. He's someone, in the same team as Lockers at this point named clubs player of the year 2 years running in 2015/16.
In the same space of time John has won a WCC, a SL title.

(By the way this kills me to compare anyone to Lockers who is my fav player at wigan)
In comparison by 24 Lockers has won... yes you've named it: nothing! And was 28 before his first appearance in a SL dream team.

I think people forget how much Lockers improved in his late 20s.


Isn't that the point though? There are reasons why O'Loughlin was underrated when he was in his early 20s, and they were often more about spurious comments about leadership or the fact that the team generally wasn't up to much?

Having said that, I agree that Bateman is incredibly hard if not possible to replace like for like, and we should be doing as much as we can to keep him. I just think that SOL is a once in a generation player who was unlucky not to be appreciated in his early years. Come to think of it, I think the way he's seen now isn't that different to Paul Scholes at man United. He's always been quality, but it was only towards his twighlight years when he was really appreciated.
Re: Gildart Signs
Post Fri May 18, 2018 3:15 pm
Posted by Last Son of Wigan on Fri May 18, 2018 3:15 pm
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Cherry_&_White wrote:
Isn't that the point though? There are reasons why O'Loughlin was underrated when he was in his early 20s, and they were often more about spurious comments about leadership or the fact that the team generally wasn't up to much?

Having said that, I agree that Bateman is incredibly hard if not possible to replace like for like, and we should be doing as much as we can to keep him. I just think that SOL is a once in a generation player who was unlucky not to be appreciated in his early years. Come to think of it, I think the way he's seen now isn't that different to Paul Scholes at man United. He's always been quality, but it was only towards his twighlight years when he was really appreciated.


This is difficult because I rate Lockers so highly, but I also remember 2006, and I do believe Bateman, age for age is better. I don't think Lockers is a one in a generation player at all. I think it's a massive overstatement, he's 35 now, just look at the players who was also part of the same generation, let me help you out:

Sinfield
Peacock
Cam Smith
Thurston
Slater
Gallen
Lockyer
Inglis
SBW
Cronk

This is getting a bit silly now.
Re: Gildart Signs
Post Fri May 18, 2018 3:30 pm
Posted by Cherry_&_White on Fri May 18, 2018 3:30 pm
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Last Son of Wigan wrote:
This is difficult because I rate Lockers so highly, but I also remember 2006, and I do believe Bateman, age for age is better. I don't think Lockers is a one in a generation player at all. I think it's a massive overstatement, he's 35 now, just look at the players who was also part of the same generation, let me help you out:

Sinfield
Peacock
Cam Smith
Thurston
Slater
Gallen
Lockyer
Inglis
SBW
Cronk

This is getting a bit silly now.


Fair enough, I meant once in a generation player more in a watching Wigan sense, but that wasn't clear (as an aside, never really rated Sinfield as highly as O'Loughlin in almost any facet of the game apart from a masterful kicking game, but that's by-the-by).

I too remember 2006, and I remember a team that was consistently putting in the sort of abject performances that Bateman has never had to put up with. O'Loughlin had to put up with that, as well as the tag of being the captain and Farrell's successor. He was blamed for stuff that wasn't his fault, and imo that coloured a lot of people's view of how good he was even in his early 20s.
Re: Gildart Signs
Post Fri May 18, 2018 4:59 pm
Posted by Phuzzy on Fri May 18, 2018 4:59 pm
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Last Son of Wigan wrote:
Right ok...
Firstly I wouldn't classify my comments as a theory, they're an opinion. And of course, which is open for debate. Don't forget the context of my comments; which are that Bateman is worthy of the marquee (I think people aren't realistic about the marquee) and I do, in my opinion feel Bateman is better 'age for age' than Lockers.

You wanted facts? Don't forget Bateman was England academy captain in 2012 taking them onto a tour of Oz, in the same year he won the Albert Goldthorpe rookie of the year award. He's someone, in the same team as Lockers at this point named clubs player of the year 2 years running in 2015/16.
In the same space of time John has won a WCC, a SL title.

(By the way this kills me to compare anyone to Lockers who is my fav player at wigan)
In comparison by 24 Lockers has won... yes you've named it: nothing! And was 28 before his first appearance in a SL dream team.

I think people forget how much Lockers improved in his late 20s.


Good post. So much so, in fact, that I won't argue except to say Bateman is playing in a winning team whereas Lockers wasn't and you only win medals as a team (hence the usual Ricky Bibey comments when medals get mentioned.) He won nothing before coming to a team already winning trophies.

That aside, I'll respect your opinion, even if I disagree with it, and say if he goes on to be as good as O'Loughlin, as you seem to think he will, then I hope it's with Wigan. Sadly I don't think it will be though.
Re: Gildart Signs
Post Fri May 18, 2018 5:03 pm
Posted by Phuzzy on Fri May 18, 2018 5:03 pm
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Cherry_&_White wrote:
Fair enough, I meant once in a generation player more in a watching Wigan sense, but that wasn't clear (as an aside, never really rated Sinfield as highly as O'Loughlin in almost any facet of the game apart from a masterful kicking game, but that's by-the-by).

I too remember 2006, and I remember a team that was consistently putting in the sort of abject performances that Bateman has never had to put up with. O'Loughlin had to put up with that, as well as the tag of being the captain and Farrell's successor. He was blamed for stuff that wasn't his fault, and imo that coloured a lot of people's view of how good he was even in his early 20s.


Exactly this.
Re: Gildart Signs
Post Fri May 18, 2018 7:41 pm
Posted by Last Son of Wigan on Fri May 18, 2018 7:41 pm
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Phuzzy wrote:
Good post. So much so, in fact, that I won't argue except to say Bateman is playing in a winning team whereas Lockers wasn't and you only win medals as a team (hence the usual Ricky Bibey comments when medals get mentioned.) He won nothing before coming to a team already winning trophies.

That aside, I'll respect your opinion, even if I disagree with it, and say if he goes on to be as good as O'Loughlin, as you seem to think he will, then I hope it's with Wigan. Sadly I don't think it will be though.


Thanks Phuzzy.

You're right, Bateman is playing in a stronger team than what Lockers did; let's look at that point, wouldn't it be fair to say it's easier to be named captain in a weaker side? Let's look a little closer at that 2006 team; Rads making a cameo, Calderwood brought in from Leeds, Richards (his first season perhaps?) Vaealiki, Hock, etc. Lockers hardly had much competition really did he? Not compared to the calibre of today's team, which you rightly said is a 'winning team'; pretty fair assessment.

You spoke of how Lockers has always been made a captain etc, yes he was (as discussed above) only to have his captaincy stripped in 2010 and replaced with a 'leadership' team in 2010 as Madge stated the squad lacked; dare I say it... leadership.
So what other team coach are you referring to? Probably England, or are you? after all Lockers was only made captain after the retirement of Sinfield/Peacock around 2015/16 when Lockers was into his 30's, so I don't know how this strengthens his case to state he was a better player than Bateman at 24.
See; facts can be used to argue for and against the same player.

As you say Bateman is in a stronger team than Lockers was in 2006, so wouldn't you say Bateman had more competition to be name the players player for two seasons on the bounce? Surely it's harder to be considered the player who's had the best season in a stronger team.

I stand by my original statement. Hopefully you now see my case.
Re: Gildart Signs
Post Sat May 19, 2018 1:39 am
Posted by Phuzzy on Sat May 19, 2018 1:39 am
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Last Son of Wigan wrote:
Thanks Phuzzy.

You're right, Bateman is playing in a stronger team than what Lockers did; let's look at that point, wouldn't it be fair to say it's easier to be named captain in a weaker side? Let's look a little closer at that 2006 team; Rads making a cameo, Calderwood brought in from Leeds, Richards (his first season perhaps?) Vaealiki, Hock, etc. Lockers hardly had much competition really did he? Not compared to the calibre of today's team, which you rightly said is a 'winning team'; pretty fair assessment.

You spoke of how Lockers has always been made a captain etc, yes he was (as discussed above) only to have his captaincy stripped in 2010 and replaced with a 'leadership' team in 2010 as Madge stated the squad lacked; dare I say it... leadership.
So what other team coach are you referring to? Probably England, or are you? after all Lockers was only made captain after the retirement of Sinfield/Peacock around 2015/16 when Lockers was into his 30's, so I don't know how this strengthens his case to state he was a better player than Bateman at 24.
See; facts can be used to argue for and against the same player.

As you say Bateman is in a stronger team than Lockers was in 2006, so wouldn't you say Bateman had more competition to be name the players player for two seasons on the bounce? Surely it's harder to be considered the player who's had the best season in a stronger team.

I stand by my original statement. Hopefully you now see my case.



I'm afraid that doesn't really hold up as former SOO and Australian international, not to mention south Sydney captain, Brian Fletcher was in the side along with Danny Orr (former captain himself) and Australian international Brett Dallas. The obvious candidate was Fletcher yet a 23 year old O'Loughlin was handed the position. He also wasn't stripped of the captaincy in 2010 either. Madge introduced something that many clubs, including ourselves use to this day. Are you suggesting that O'Loughlin is somehow less of a captain today because we retain a leadership group? Leeds had the same when both Sinfield and Peacock were captains. Does that lessen their role? The fact that Lockers has been made captain at every level he has played at, from juniors to full international, says your argument has little merit.

You seem to have mistaken the fact that I said I wasn't going to argue your post as some sort of admission that you're right. I said I wasn't... not I couldn't. I said that as you'd provided a reason for your beliefs, which is what I'd asked for so I thought it only fair to accept your opinion as valid. That doesn't mean to say I think you're right or that I couldn't offer a rebuttal of all the points you made. I'd be more than happy to do it now if you like?

As to the further points you raised in this post: Are you saying that being players player of the year makes you the best player at the club? Explain Powell winning the same award. He has never been, nor ever will be the best player at the club. I tip Willie Isa to win it this year. The same will apply should he win it. That award has completely unique criteria applied to it and in no way reflects the overall quality of a player. Do you believe JB was the best player at the club the two years he won it? I certainly don't. You say it's an award for the player who's had the best season. It's not. It's more often won by the player who's had HIS best season. There's a difference.

As for the last statement : Yes I do see your case and I'm glad you explained some of the reasons you believe it. It's good to get other fan's views, especially when they don't tally with your own. It's even better to have interesting and civilized debate. Thanks for that. Do I believe you're right though? No I don't. I'll ask you a simple question. Name the things you think JB is better at than Lockers aged 24? I'll give my side to kick us off.

Passing ability : Lockers by a comfortable margin.
Kicking : Lockers by a comfortable margin
Defense : Both good. I'll say a draw.
Speed : Lockers by a fair margin.
Hit ups : Draw again.
Leadership : Lockers (although I'll concede JB probably hasn't had the same opportunities to show his credentials)
Engine : Draw again.
Versatility : Lockers. Played all the positions JB plays plus both half back positions.

In fact, I'm struggling to think of a single area where JB is better... Let alone 'Far better' as you posted.

Over to you. :wink:
Re: Gildart Signs
Post Sat May 19, 2018 6:45 am
Posted by hatty on Sat May 19, 2018 6:45 am
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I think it now boils down to, who has the biggest?
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Re: Gildart Signs
Post Sat May 19, 2018 7:11 am
Posted by Ovavoo on Sat May 19, 2018 7:11 am
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hatty wrote:
I think it now boils down to, who has the biggest?


And the curliest hair.
Re: Gildart Signs
Post Sat May 19, 2018 7:46 am
Posted by Jukesays on Sat May 19, 2018 7:46 am
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Ovavoo wrote:
And the curliest hair.


And who's bigger.

Ps
If I had the option of choosing who to sign tomorrow, a 24 year old John Bateman our a 24 year old Sean o loughlin I'm afraid there'd only be one winner by a country mile.
Around 2007/08 when fans of other clubs were still ridiculing wigan for their last 4/5 years of abject failure he was by far and away the best loose forward in the game over here. Lockers got caught up a lot in that ridicule and criticism and although I do believe he did carry on improving at 24/25 he was still seen by many experts in the game as the best loose forward in Britain.
Selected for GB in 2004.
Don't forget he played in the win in Sydney for gb in 2006. Man of the series against New Zealand year after.

The fact wigan were in disarray in 05+06 and a year or so before and after that were more off field issues than reflections of him as a player or captain/leader.

I think the team around him and the club in general improving heeled him mature but he was always going to be one hell of a player.
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