Re: Watersplash final red button Bbc : Mon May 14, 2018 4:10 am  

What I find really noticeable watching games from whenever way back when up until the mid 80s is just how relatively small players were, in terms of general body shape (except for the obviously fat gets running around most clubs). Backs were generally small and hardly any of them looked like they'd last five minutes in the modern game without being snapped in half. Most of the backrowers would get absolutely totalled if they played today and props from contested scrums were generally hopelessly unfit.

Its just such a different sport back then - far less physical (except for the gratuitous violence), some skills far poorer like long passing and kicking, but other skills far better like off the cuff plays and the willingness to take risks. I like watching games from the 80s and 90s but its a very different spectacle. I've got a DVD of the Broncos GF wins we watch every now and then, and the earlier games seem very fast, and I'm always quite surprised to see that if anything there were fewer tackles made than today, when the game just seemed to crack on at a rate that feels much faster.

[Bullseye]

Re: Watersplash final red button Bbc : Mon May 14, 2018 9:53 am  

I remember the back end of the era of contested scrums and they were always a mass of struggling players trying to bend the rules to get possession. It was a lottery to try and officiate them. The play the ball nowadays is like that.

I wonder if the cause of the problem with the wrestling and buggering about at the play the ball is down to the 10m rule. When players only had to get back 5m there was less need to wrestle and hold down so it didn’t happen.

Re: Watersplash final red button Bbc : Mon May 14, 2018 10:35 am  

Bullseye wrote:

I remember the back end of the era of contested scrums and they were always a mass of struggling players trying to bend the rules to get possession. It was a lottery to try and officiate them. The play the ball nowadays is like that.

I wonder if the cause of the problem with the wrestling and buggering about at the play the ball is down to the 10m rule. When players only had to get back 5m there was less need to wrestle and hold down so it didn’t happen.

I know what you mean but I think the wrestling would still happen, I think it’s just a consequence of professionalism and modern conditioning that means clubs have the opportunity to practice the wrestle/control of the tackle more than they used to. Without going back to the amateur/semi pro days I don’t think we’ll ever eliminate the wrestle. I think we can tidy it up, mostly by controlling the attacker at the play the ball, ensure they’re stood up before playing the ball, facing the right way, touch the ball with their foot and don’t step off the mark.

I think if we had defences at 5m now you’d have attacking teams going backward in sets. Defences can legitimately be up on first receivers by the time they get the ball even at 10m. With 5m it’d be a nightmare.
I’d make a couple of rule changes:
- Alter the held call so that when a player is held the referee controls the speed of the play the ball. Currently there’s no incentive for the defence to hold the ball carrier up because they can then play the ball very quickly. This leads to defences holding the ball carrier so he can’t offload but delaying putting them to the ground for as long as possible, then dumping them to the ground. I think a rule change where defences can actually benefit from holding a player up would both slightly speed the game up and cause fewer injuries.

- change the point at which defences can move up. Currently it’s when the ball carrier touches the ball with his foot at the play the ball. I’d move this back to when the acting half back either runs or passes. It would give the attack a smidge extra time on the ball each tackle, hopefully opening the game up just a little.

Re: Watersplash final red button Bbc : Mon May 14, 2018 10:51 am  

Bullseye wrote:

I remember the back end of the era of contested scrums and they were always a mass of struggling players trying to bend the rules to get possession. It was a lottery to try and officiate them. The play the ball nowadays is like that.

I wonder if the cause of the problem with the wrestling and buggering about at the play the ball is down to the 10m rule. When players only had to get back 5m there was less need to wrestle and hold down so it didn’t happen.

I did think the same TBH when watching it. When you watched the footage of the players just getting on with it in several inches of standing water, and you see the modern day lot just flapping round on the floor like a caught fish begging for a penalty, you realise how desperate we are as a sport to tidy the ruck up.

What about an idea if the referee awards a penalty for interference at the ruck, you just get a tap penalty instead of being able to kick to touch? Having an incentive of earning a free 40m, is what is causing players to try so hard to win a penalty by diving about. If you don'y actually get a any free ground, this could help combat it IMO.

[Bullseye]

Re: Watersplash final red button Bbc : Mon May 14, 2018 10:57 am  

Him wrote:

I know what you mean but I think the wrestling would still happen, I think it’s just a consequence of professionalism and modern conditioning that means clubs have the opportunity to practice the wrestle/control of the tackle more than they used to. Without going back to the amateur/semi pro days I don’t think we’ll ever eliminate the wrestle. I think we can tidy it up, mostly by controlling the attacker at the play the ball, ensure they’re stood up before playing the ball, facing the right way, touch the ball with their foot and don’t step off the mark.

You’re probably right but I think the issue at the PTB is as much down to the defenders as the attacker so any steps to clear it up must address both parties.

Him wrote:

I’d make a couple of rule changes:
- Alter the held call so that when a player is held the referee controls the speed of the play the ball. Currently there’s no incentive for the defence to hold the ball carrier up because they can then play the ball very quickly. This leads to defences holding the ball carrier so he can’t offload but delaying putting them to the ground for as long as possible, then dumping them to the ground. I think a rule change where defences can actually benefit from holding a player up would both slightly speed the game up and cause fewer injuries.

- change the point at which defences can move up. Currently it’s when the ball carrier touches the ball with his foot at the play the ball. I’d move this back to when the acting half back either runs or passes. It would give the attack a smidge extra time on the ball each tackle, hopefully opening the game up just a little.

Doesn’t the ref already control the play the ball with when he calls “held” or “move”? I think this is part of the problem. Players hold down, lock in or clamp the ball carrying arm and don’t begin to move until they get the call. This wasn’t always the case. When I played back in the early 90s refs didn’t make the “move” call. It meant you had to start getting off when the tackle was complete and all players know when that’s the case – they don’t need to be told. Any player if they’re being honest would agree. Anyone not peeling off/rolling away would be penalised without getting a prior warning. I know this could promote more dummy half scooting rugby like Saints in the early 2000s but it’s a better spectacle than the wrestlemania.

[Bullseye]

Re: Watersplash final red button Bbc : Mon May 14, 2018 10:58 am  

Bull Mania wrote:

What about an idea if the referee awards a penalty for interference at the ruck, you just get a tap penalty instead of being able to kick to touch? Having an incentive of earning a free 40m, is what is causing players to try so hard to win a penalty by diving about. If you don'y actually get a any free ground, this could help combat it IMO.

Not a bad idea that.

Re: Watersplash final red button Bbc : Mon May 14, 2018 11:00 am  

BTW, don't want to re-rail the thread, the documentary was superbly done. Would love more of these to be done as we have so many great stories to tell. I was welling up when i saw the footage of Don kicking that goal all those years later

Re: Watersplash final red button Bbc : Mon May 14, 2018 11:31 am  

Bull Mania wrote:

I did think the same TBH when watching it. When you watched the footage of the players just getting on with it in several inches of standing water, and you see the modern day lot just flapping round on the floor like a caught fish begging for a penalty, you realise how desperate we are as a sport to tidy the ruck up.

What about an idea if the referee awards a penalty for interference at the ruck, you just get a tap penalty instead of being able to kick to touch? Having an incentive of earning a free 40m, is what is causing players to try so hard to win a penalty by diving about. If you don'y actually get a any free ground, this could help combat it IMO.

Whilst there is a lot of diving about at the play the ball in an attempt to win a penalty, there is also a lot of messing about and actual interference at the play the ball, so if they change the ruling to one you suggest we might see an even further increase in the messing about at the play the ball due to been a lesser punishment should they get punished in the first place.

Why not just start penalising the attacking player for his over drama? Similar to diving in football, this should act as a deterrent and make players think twice about throwing themselves on the floor.

Re: Watersplash final red button Bbc : Mon May 14, 2018 11:55 am  

A minor point,never realised that the national anthem was played after the match in those days ,when did this change?.My memories are of the band of the Coldstream Guards marching onto the field playing Congratulations allthough the watersplash final would predate this i think.Must have been the quickest lap of honour on record !