Re: Would you pick Tomkins or Escare at full back for 2018? : Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:34 am  

BrisbaneRhino wrote:

As an aside, it really looks like Williams has gone backwards this year. In the brief periods he played for england he looked like he had no idea what role he had or what he was trying to do. He looks like he needs to sit down and reboot his game, because there's no doubt he has raw ability, and it would be a crying shame if he never kicks on.

He's a half with no organisational skills. his style would suit FB, good runner, good passer and doesn't have to organise the play. Or as a 6 who plays off a 7, not in a split halves system.

Re: Would you pick Tomkins or Escare at full back for 2018? : Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:57 am  

Last Son of Wigan wrote:

He's a half with no organisational skills. his style would suit FB, good runner, good passer and doesn't have to organise the play. Or as a 6 who plays off a 7, not in a split halves system.

I don't think it is a co-incidence that George looked better alongside Matty Smith (for all his faults according to some) than Tommy - what Wigan are crying out for, and have been for some time, is a 7 with good organising and kicking abilities - but where one will come form is another question.

Re: Would you pick Tomkins or Escare at full back for 2018? : Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:23 pm  

exiled Warrior wrote:

I don't think it is a co-incidence that George looked better alongside Matty Smith (for all his faults according to some) than Tommy - what Wigan are crying out for, and have been for some time, is a 7 with good organising and kicking abilities - but where one will come form is another question.

Depends how we play. We play split halves, one on the left, one on the right, they barely interact, that's why Lockers is so crucial, and he stands in the centre of the line and links the play. We often look lost and clueless without Lockers as we replace a ball player with a running forward. In this case both 6 and 7 need to organise their side of the attack and kick.

If we go old school, 6 playing off a 7 who works either side of the ruck (a little how a 10 does in Union) they George would benefit from a organising 7.

Re: Would you pick Tomkins or Escare at full back for 2018? : Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:36 pm  

Last Son of Wigan wrote:

If we go old school, 6 playing off a 7 who works either side of the ruck (a little how a 10 does in Union) they George would benefit from a organising 7.

Can you think of a team that plays this way? I've wracked my brain and I can't think of anyone. Even at the Cowboys Thurston plays on the left and Morgan on the right. At Melbourne Cronk plays right and Munster left. Though Cronk and Thurston do go over and demand the ball occasionally, it is rare.

Re: Would you pick Tomkins or Escare at full back for 2018? : Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:20 pm  

Last Son of Wigan wrote:

Depends how we play. We play split halves, one on the left, one on the right, they barely interact, that's why Lockers is so crucial, and he stands in the centre of the line and links the play. We often look lost and clueless without Lockers as we replace a ball player with a running forward. In this case both 6 and 7 need to organise their side of the attack and kick.

If we go old school, 6 playing off a 7 who works either side of the ruck (a little how a 10 does in Union) they George would benefit from a organising 7.

We still need a half who can organise and especially kick - for a long time now Wigan have been very poor in the long kicking game, Lockers will not be around for much longer so we need something in place. George is a runner - it is what he does best plus his short passing game is improving, but he is not a good field kicker. Until someone fullfils that role - split halves or not there will always be issues. Every other club seems to have someone (or more) who takes that responsibility and does it at least to a decent standard - bar Wigan.

Re: Would you pick Tomkins or Escare at full back for 2018? : Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:39 pm  

Aboveusonlypie wrote:

Can you think of a team that plays this way? I've wracked my brain and I can't think of anyone. Even at the Cowboys Thurston plays on the left and Morgan on the right. At Melbourne Cronk plays right and Munster left. Though Cronk and Thurston do go over and demand the ball occasionally, it is rare.

Canberra? I'd say Aidan Sezer is the organising, kicking half-back and Blake Austin is the running five-eighth.



Agree they are the exception to the rule, though.

Re: Would you pick Tomkins or Escare at full back for 2018? : Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:17 pm  

moto748 wrote:

Canberra? I'd say Aidan Sezer is the organising, kicking half-back and Blake Austin is the running five-eighth.



Agree they are the exception to the rule, though.

Five-eighth? I thought it was stand off!

Re: Would you pick Tomkins or Escare at full back for 2018? : Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:30 pm  

Aboveusonlypie wrote: Can you think of a team that plays this way? I've wracked my brain and I can't think of anyone. Even at the Cowboys Thurston plays on the left and Morgan on the right. At Melbourne Cronk plays right and Munster left. Though Cronk and Thurston do go over and demand the ball occasionally, it is rare. It's a good question. Usually now I see split halves, with the better halfback pairings you can see one half given more of a free role to link up with the opposite side of the pitch, this allows better players to 'play what's in front of them' rather than sticking to structures. When Lockyer played for Aus with JT, Aus often lined up with the 6 as the second receiver, Lockyer often at times 'sat out' plays, the communication would be between the 9, Smith and JT a 7 to get the 'roll on' with the forwards etc. Lockyer then would be in a position to watch the defensive line and move either side of the ruck, always communicating with his 7 and importantly his FB (Slater) when to chime into the line to form an attack, he operated like an on-field coach. This is now become another difference between our game RL and RU, who will shift their backs in order to attack different flanks, nearly always lining up 9 (SH) to 10 (FH) to a 12 (IC) to the 13(OS) with then options to bring in the 15 (FB) and winger. (I've even noticed at times a RU winger on the opposite flank working in the play as another option, almost like a RL FB (this is were Ashton found try scoring success with his great support play in RU. Even if you look at some RL graphics when they line up teams (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sol/shared/bsp/hi ... /image.gif) They use the old structure. As we, as most teams employ a split halves attack both halves pretty much need to be an 'old school' 7, a ball player, skilful with hands controlling their half of the attack, this is why the FB in the modern game is so important, they are the 'new stand off' they link up as a second receiver in the line linking to the centres/wingers etc. For me Williams doesn't control his half, at times runs around like a headless chicken, and in truth as very little to do with Tommy who is on the other side of the pitch. I feel both 6 and 7 or shall we say 7 and 7 should be great ball players, can open up defences, can control and read a game and have a great kicking game. Game management is the key with a 13 linking between the two halves.

Aboveusonlypie wrote: Can you think of a team that plays this way? I've wracked my brain and I can't think of anyone. Even at the Cowboys Thurston plays on the left and Morgan on the right. At Melbourne Cronk plays right and Munster left. Though Cronk and Thurston do go over and demand the ball occasionally, it is rare. It's a good question. Usually now I see split halves, with the better halfback pairings you can see one half given more of a free role to link up with the opposite side of the pitch, this allows better players to 'play what's in front of them' rather than sticking to structures. When Lockyer played for Aus with JT, Aus often lined up with the 6 as the second receiver, Lockyer often at times 'sat out' plays, the communication would be between the 9, Smith and JT a 7 to get the 'roll on' with the forwards etc. Lockyer then would be in a position to watch the defensive line and move either side of the ruck, always communicating with his 7 and importantly his FB (Slater) when to chime into the line to form an attack, he operated like an on-field coach. This is now become another difference between our game RL and RU, who will shift their backs in order to attack different flanks, nearly always lining up 9 (SH) to 10 (FH) to a 12 (IC) to the 13(OS) with then options to bring in the 15 (FB) and winger. (I've even noticed at times a RU winger on the opposite flank working in the play as another option, almost like a RL FB (this is were Ashton found try scoring success with his great support play in RU. Even if you look at some RL graphics when they line up teams (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sol/shared/bsp/hi ... /image.gif) They use the old structure. As we, as most teams employ a split halves attack both halves pretty much need to be an 'old school' 7, a ball player, skilful with hands controlling their half of the attack, this is why the FB in the modern game is so important, they are the 'new stand off' they link up as a second receiver in the line linking to the centres/wingers etc. For me Williams doesn't control his half, at times runs around like a headless chicken, and in truth as very little to do with Tommy who is on the other side of the pitch. I feel both 6 and 7 or shall we say 7 and 7 should be great ball players, can open up defences, can control and read a game and have a great kicking game. Game management is the key with a 13 linking between the two halves.

Re: Would you pick Tomkins or Escare at full back for 2018? : Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:34 pm  

exiled Warrior wrote:

We still need a half who can organise and especially kick - for a long time now Wigan have been very poor in the long kicking game, Lockers will not be around for much longer so we need something in place. George is a runner - it is what he does best plus his short passing game is improving, but he is not a good field kicker. Until someone fullfils that role - split halves or not there will always be issues. Every other club seems to have someone (or more) who takes that responsibility and does it at least to a decent standard - bar Wigan.

I agree. But we need two halves. As one organises the left, and the other the right. One only operates his half of the attack.

Being a runner simply isn't good enough in a half. They need game management, passing, kicking and the ability to open up the line.

We are lacking in both halves.

Re: Would you pick Tomkins or Escare at full back for 2018? : Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:36 pm  

Many would disagree but I feel Danny Brough would be a great 6/7 for us. Great organiser, excellent kicking game, can find a break and would be excellent and linking with a FB.

Great spot kicker as well.