"loose carry" : Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:56 pm  

In the wake of the Tonga game, I have heard a lot of people using the terms "loose carry" and "ball security". Having scoured the rule books (I know- too much spare time) there is no mention of these terms: probably made up by Eddie or Stevo like the term "free play"! In fact, the NRL, the RFL and even the Rugby Union rules mention nothing about the attacking player having any responsibility to hold the ball securely. So my interpretation is that if the ball is knocked loose by a defender, it cannot be deemed a knock on by the attacker... http://www.rugby-league.com/the_rfl/rules/laws_of_the_game/knock_on__forward_pass https://www.nrl.com/portals/nrl/RadEditor/Documents/NRL15_1651%20NRL%20Laws%20%20Interpretations_A4_Brochure_FA_2_Proof.pdf http://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=12.1&language=EN

In the wake of the Tonga game, I have heard a lot of people using the terms "loose carry" and "ball security". Having scoured the rule books (I know- too much spare time) there is no mention of these terms: probably made up by Eddie or Stevo like the term "free play"! In fact, the NRL, the RFL and even the Rugby Union rules mention nothing about the attacking player having any responsibility to hold the ball securely. So my interpretation is that if the ball is knocked loose by a defender, it cannot be deemed a knock on by the attacker... http://www.rugby-league.com/the_rfl/rules/laws_of_the_game/knock_on__forward_pass https://www.nrl.com/portals/nrl/RadEditor/Documents/NRL15_1651%20NRL%20Laws%20%20Interpretations_A4_Brochure_FA_2_Proof.pdf http://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=12.1&language=EN

Re: "loose carry" : Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:04 pm  

If the ball was knocked loose by the defender perhaps, but Whitehead didn't do that. He did pull at the attackers arm which forced him to lose it.

See them a dime a dozen and if it happened in the 1st minute no one would even be debating as anything but a knock on. McGuire did the exact same on Eden in the GF and only got praise for a great tackle.

Re: "loose carry" : Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:53 pm  

PrinterThe wrote:

If the ball was knocked loose by the defender perhaps, but Whitehead didn't do that. He did pull at the attackers arm which forced him to lose it.

See them a dime a dozen and if it happened in the 1st minute no one would even be debating as anything but a knock on. McGuire did the exact same on Eden in the GF and only got praise for a great tackle.

It was a loose carry end of, in fact it was s knock on plain and simple. If that is ball stripping let's just ban tackling.

People making a fuss about this are just silly people who like to make a fuss.

Also how many forward passes did Tonga get away with on the build up to two out of the three tries but let's not make a fuss.

Re: "loose carry" : Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:23 pm  

Looking in the wrong section that’s why:

Losing possession 8. If a tackled player loses possession of the ball at the moment of impact with an opponent or with the ground, play shall proceed unless stopped for some other reason, e.g. the ball has been knocked forward. A player in possession brought to his knees or brought to the ground on his back may still pass the ball – provided he has not made it evident that he has succumbed to the tackle. He should not be wrongly penalised otherwise all players will become reluctant to pass the ball as the tackle nears completion in case they too are penalised. The continuity of play would consequently be adversely and unnecessarily affected.

Stealing ball 9. Where a player steals the ball from a player on whom he is effecting a tackle, play will be allowed to continue. Where two or more players are effecting the same tackle - irrespective of whether all but one “drops off” the tackle, and the ball is subsequently taken from the tackled player, a penalty will be awarded against the player or players effecting the tackle.

Re: "loose carry" : Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:31 pm  

Halifax1989 wrote: In the wake of the Tonga game, I have heard a lot of people using the terms "loose carry" and "ball security". Having scoured the rule books (I know- too much spare time) there is no mention of these terms: probably made up by Eddie or Stevo like the term "free play"! In fact, the NRL, the RFL and even the Rugby Union rules mention nothing about the attacking player having any responsibility to hold the ball securely. So my interpretation is that if the ball is knocked loose by a defender, it cannot be deemed a knock on by the attacker... http://www.rugby-league.com/the_rfl/rules/laws_of_the_game/knock_on__forward_pass https://www.nrl.com/portals/nrl/RadEditor/Documents/NRL15_1651%20NRL%20Laws%20%20Interpretations_A4_Brochure_FA_2_Proof.pdf http://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=12.1&language=EN he knocked it on after contact in the tackle, his hands were the last to be in contact with the ball before it hit the ground, the England defender did not knock it on into his body either (the ball was still in situ after Whitehead had his hand on the ball, the ball came out of Fafita's hands, ergo it is a knock on as per the laws of the game. Your interpretation is incorrect according to the laws of the game. How difficult is that for you and many others to grasp? Here, Fafita is just about to lose control of the ball and is moments before it hits the ground, Whitehead's hands are nowhere near the ball, the last person to have hands on the ball before it hits the ground is fafita, so according to the laws of the game it is a knock on, plain and simple

Halifax1989 wrote: In the wake of the Tonga game, I have heard a lot of people using the terms "loose carry" and "ball security". Having scoured the rule books (I know- too much spare time) there is no mention of these terms: probably made up by Eddie or Stevo like the term "free play"! In fact, the NRL, the RFL and even the Rugby Union rules mention nothing about the attacking player having any responsibility to hold the ball securely. So my interpretation is that if the ball is knocked loose by a defender, it cannot be deemed a knock on by the attacker... http://www.rugby-league.com/the_rfl/rules/laws_of_the_game/knock_on__forward_pass https://www.nrl.com/portals/nrl/RadEditor/Documents/NRL15_1651%20NRL%20Laws%20%20Interpretations_A4_Brochure_FA_2_Proof.pdf http://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=12.1&language=EN he knocked it on after contact in the tackle, his hands were the last to be in contact with the ball before it hit the ground, the England defender did not knock it on into his body either (the ball was still in situ after Whitehead had his hand on the ball, the ball came out of Fafita's hands, ergo it is a knock on as per the laws of the game. Your interpretation is incorrect according to the laws of the game. How difficult is that for you and many others to grasp? Here, Fafita is just about to lose control of the ball and is moments before it hits the ground, Whitehead's hands are nowhere near the ball, the last person to have hands on the ball before it hits the ground is fafita, so according to the laws of the game it is a knock on, plain and simple

Re: "loose carry" : Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:40 pm  

What's dissapointing is the tremendous last gasp effort from Whitehead that caused him to loose the ball has largely gone unnoticed. If that's not playing until the last seconds what is? And then that fat sod had the cheek to jump around like he'd won the game and been badly done to. IT WAS REEFED REF, REEFED. Pee off fatso. Had a chip on their shoulder the entire game, everytime there was a decision sgainst them even if correct the coaching staff were shaking their heads. It was as if they thought they had a right to special treatment because they were the underdogs and because they were a story.

Better luck next time, unless that is the turn coat fecks are playing for NZ and aus again.

Re: "loose carry" : Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:12 pm  

Fully wrote:

Looking in the wrong section that’s why:

Losing possession 8. If a tackled player loses possession of the ball at the moment of impact with an opponent or with the ground, play shall proceed unless stopped for some other reason, e.g. the ball has been knocked forward. A player in possession brought to his knees or brought to the ground on his back may still pass the ball – provided he has not made it evident that he has succumbed to the tackle. He should not be wrongly penalised otherwise all players will become reluctant to pass the ball as the tackle nears completion in case they too are penalised. The continuity of play would consequently be adversely and unnecessarily affected.

Stealing ball 9. Where a player steals the ball from a player on whom he is effecting a tackle, play will be allowed to continue. Where two or more players are effecting the same tackle - irrespective of whether all but one “drops off” the tackle, and the ball is subsequently taken from the tackled player, a penalty will be awarded against the player or players effecting the tackle.

Thanks for that, Fully. Seriously for once, do you also have the definition of "the same tackle" as it looked very much like the first attempted tackle had been broken a split second before Whitehead's "elbow tap" (new coinage?). Is that the same tackle?

Do we also have a decent definition of "stealing the ball"?

That's the trouble with laws (be they of the game, of the land or of the international community), they are often worded ambiguously. At least on here the ambiguities merely lead to lively (sometimes heated) debate rather than barristers et al squeezing a disgraceful rub out of their punters, sorry, clients.

The Ref saw it as he saw it in real time and, with no dissenting voice from the touch judge, called it as it would have been (and was) called here.

There were many dissenting voices when the video ref was first mooted. On the whole it has been a success but will cease to be if everything is sent upstairs. We'll all end up fatter than Yanks if we have to get through twenty burgers waiting for each game to finish!

Re: "loose carry" : Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:34 pm  

Whitehead barely touched the ball if at all. He basically jarred Fifita's arm and he dropped it. Correct call by the ref.

[Sadfish]

Re: "loose carry" : Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:27 am  

Whitehead made the tackle of the tournament, sadly the fake newsers are making everyone see something that isn't there.

Re: "loose carry" : Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:34 am  

BrisbaneRhino wrote:

Whitehead barely touched the ball if at all. He basically jarred Fifita's arm and he dropped it. Correct call by the ref.

Yes, first point of contact was bottom of shoulder and top of bicep, there was slight contact with the ball as he pulled the arm for a second. When the ball was lost in the carry Whitehead was already horizontal on the ground.