Re: Do folk on here still talk about contested scrums? : Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:43 pm  

I think the problem is that for some reason most teams dont try to make use of it. As many have said above, the extra space in the defence from a scrum should be a phenomenal advantage- it almost makes it 7s rugby for one play. Way back in the day we had Andrew Dunemann at 6 and he would always try something different straight from the scrum

Re: Do folk on here still talk about contested scrums? : Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:18 pm  

Dally wrote:

Contested scrums became a farce towards their end. If both packs are seriously trying to win at all costs they become a mess, as they did. They rely on both team "playing the game" and have no place in a professional sport.

Absolutely spot on. By the time we finally ended them, contested scrums were a complete joke and the refereee had to turn a blind eye to dozens of offences just to get the game re-started. Union vaunts it's scrums, but they are just as bad in their way, and how often does the team win the ball against the head and feed?

Better off staying with what we have now.

Re: Do folk on here still talk about contested scrums? : Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:16 pm  

Asgardian13 wrote:

Absolutely spot on. By the time we finally ended them, contested scrums were a complete joke and the refereee had to turn a blind eye to dozens of offences just to get the game re-started. Union vaunts it's scrums, but they are just as bad in their way, and how often does the team win the ball against the head and feed?

Better off staying with what we have now.

It might help if all the reffs sing from the same hymn sheet, especially on when to allow a push or contest for the ball.

Re: Do folk on here still talk about contested scrums? : Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:30 pm  

Halifax1989 wrote:

I think the problem is that for some reason most teams dont try to make use of it. As many have said above, the extra space in the defence from a scrum should be a phenomenal advantage- it almost makes it 7s rugby for one play. Way back in the day we had Andrew Dunemann at 6 and he would always try something different straight from the scrum

The problem nowadays is that the 2nd row and loose forward don't bind at all, so as soon as the ball goes into the scrum they peel off to join the defensive line. One ploy that we've seen successful a few times is to hold the ball in the scrum - if done correctly then a penalty almost always follows because the defensive team is so used to breaking from the scrum as soon as the ball is fed.

If only we had Andrew Dunemann playing for Fax now! We had a seriously good half-back combination with him and Gavin Clinch, and we should probably have done better than we did with both of them in the team.

Re: Do folk on here still talk about contested scrums? : Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:49 am  

Asgardian13 wrote:

Union vaunts it's scrums, but they are just as bad in their way, and how often does the team win the ball against the head and feed?

Better off staying with what we have now.

Correct and scrums in union are one of the very worst things about their game for me. Union needs scrums though because of the general negative play of their game. Scrums provide space for set moves and their game needs that. League creates tonnes of attacking opportunities so it is less important to our game.

Re: Do folk on here still talk about contested scrums? : Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:48 am  

HXSparky wrote:

The problem nowadays is that the 2nd row and loose forward don't bind at all, so as soon as the ball goes into the scrum they peel off to join the defensive line. One ploy that we've seen successful a few times is to hold the ball in the scrum - if done correctly then a penalty almost always follows because the defensive team is so used to breaking from the scrum as soon as the ball is fed.

If only we had Andrew Dunemann playing for Fax now! We had a seriously good half-back combination with him and Gavin Clinch, and we should probably have done better than we did with both of them in the team.

Agreed, and perhaps it would be better to focus on this than to do away with scrums all together!

Re: Do folk on here still talk about contested scrums? : Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:12 pm  

There has to be a concerted effort to have International rules that are played globally including NRL & RFL. No point going off at a tangent if NRL won't adopt changes.
But, on scrums, I'd like a trial of this:
Attacking team ie. team feeding the scrum has to ensure that the ball stays in the scrum for three seconds.
On ball going in ref shouts "in". Then, after three seconds he shouts "ok" after which attacking team may release the ball from the scrum.
What if:-
Defending (non feeding) team pushes/strikes and get the ball out in less than 3 seconds? - that's ok.
What if attacking (feeding) team get ball out of the scrum in less than three seconds? - Tap penalty to defending (non feeding) team once ref has got other team back the 10 metres.
Note, refs often shout "out" anyway now which they should cease doing. It's the defending team's job not to encroach into the ten whilst the ball is still in the scrum.
Results of above suggestion? The scrum would be better packed and tidier (and no more scrum halfs etc in the front row!)
The defending team would have an incentive to push a bit. The attacking team would have to pack in properly to set a solid platform to resist any push from the other team.
Scrums should be retained as a feature of RL for variety and tying in half the defenders and whilst not wanting to go down the Union route, this idea would make them a bit more how they should be.

Re: Do folk on here still talk about contested scrums? : Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:27 pm  

Mr Churchill wrote:

There has to be a concerted effort to have International rules that are played globally including NRL & RFL. No point going off at a tangent if NRL won't adopt changes.
But, on scrums, I'd like a trial of this:
Attacking team ie. team feeding the scrum has to ensure that the ball stays in the scrum for three seconds.
On ball going in ref shouts "in". Then, after three seconds he shouts "ok" after which attacking team may release the ball from the scrum.
What if:-
Defending (non feeding) team pushes/strikes and get the ball out in less than 3 seconds? - that's ok.
What if attacking (feeding) team get ball out of the scrum in less than three seconds? - Tap penalty to defending (non feeding) team once ref has got other team back the 10 metres.
Note, refs often shout "out" anyway now which they should cease doing. It's the defending team's job not to encroach into the ten whilst the ball is still in the scrum.
Results of above suggestion? The scrum would be better packed and tidier (and no more scrum halfs etc in the front row!)
The defending team would have an incentive to push a bit. The attacking team would have to pack in properly to set a solid platform to resist any push from the other team.
Scrums should be retained as a feature of RL for variety and tying in half the defenders and whilst not wanting to go down the Union route, this idea would make them a bit more how they should be.

Far to complicated for me, as an over 60 year old I well remember the old scrums & far to much time & effort went into them, as they are now is OK. but as you say the ref should not shout the ball in or out it should be the teams who do that & if they get it wrong penalise them for breaking early. What would be great is if the coaches let the players try some trick plays off the scrum, our team used to kick from the half back down field & Stanley Gene chased it & quiet often got he ball back way down field for the first tackle & scored a couple of long range try's. It also made the defending side get their fullback out of the defensive line & made more room to run it. The main problem now is safety first plays. There is little chance to regain the ball in open play, completion is becoming more important.

Re: Do folk on here still talk about contested scrums? : Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:41 am  

Whilst scrums themselves are a bit farcial (which we can all agree), they used to at least enable a contest for possession. We simply don't have enough in RL (can't strip the ball any more or rake at the PTB). As a result possession is the holy grail, and there is very little reward for taking a risk. In fact almost all 'risky' plays have dreadful odds and so have all but disappeared (how often except in desperation do we see chips in broken play?)

I can understand issues with not going back to contested scrums, but what I would do is insist on players binding, at least allow the opposition to try to shove over the ball, and where I'd like to encourage a bit of spark is by not allowing any of the players in the scrum to get involved in the first tackle off it - basically the same as anyone offside on a kick chase can't. I'd even go further and say they'd have to keep contact with the scrum until the first tackle is completed. That would get rid of props at stand off in a flash and give the attacking team one tackle to try to make a play backs against backs.

[Sadfish]

Re: Do folk on here still talk about contested scrums? : Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:01 am  

I think it is ok as it is, In saying that, I say it as I don't think it can be improved, I think the laws are there to make the bind and no unbind until the ball is out, it is all about the refs interpretation on the day.

In Australia, it may have been mentioned but they have very few scrums now and I expect it to be gone eventually from the game over there.