Re: could us fans save the club : Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:06 am  

Adeybull wrote:

What "hidden extra owed"?

There is none.

I said several months ago that the huge difference between the Bulls and Wakey situations was that the Bulls cost base was considerably higher than Wakey's, and the ongoing funding gap correspondingly far larger. That was why what worked for Wakey would not work for the Bulls. As the administrator has effectively confirmed today.

To be honest if I'd known about the alleged £250k VAT on the lease sale and the alleged £200k potential VAT liability on season tickets I definitely wouldnt have pledged.

Re: could us fans save the club : Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:09 am  

Some times people have to learn that the only way to stop the hole getting deeper is to put down the shovel and walk away. For us, Hood realised this far too late.

The pledge was a vain attempt to buy time. It has bought 3 months and more debt as we miss PAYE payments. wouldve been better to go into admin before the pledge as the ddebts to HMRC wouldnt have been so high, and might just have been a rescueable sitiaution.


what if eh?

Re: could us fans save the club : Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:35 am  

Cibaman wrote:

To be honest if I'd known about the alleged £250k VAT on the lease sale and the alleged £200k potential VAT liability on season tickets I definitely wouldnt have pledged.

I knew about the VAT on the lease, and reported this was outstanding at the time of the pledge. It is entirely factual, not alleged. Indeed, I had an argument with Hood about it, as eleven others will attest. The invoice was dated January 2012, and the VAT was not payable until the end of April 2012 - so at the time of the pledge it was not even due for payment. I said this at the time, although I did not know the amount (I expected it might be a bit more, tbh) until that was later reported.

It was patently clear to us that the club had used that money in the interim (and I think people know my views on doing that!), and that was what part of the "second" £500k was going to be required for paying. That was why I presumed they said "within six weeks" for the second £500k.

I pledged in the knowledge of that.

The Season Tickets VAT issue was never raised before (other than by GB, clearly having been briefed with inside information, but unfortunately his attitude and manner is not conducive to gaining credibility IMO). Had I been aware of the issue (it remains an "alleged", I guess) I would have asked for an explanation, and not let it drop - believe me. Ask people what I did about the lease VAT! But - provided the explanation suggested the board had acted in reasonably good faith - I still would have pledged. Since I was pledging (and paid) to try and help save the Bulls, to buy the incumbents time to save the Bulls. The Bulls; not the board.

Re: could us fans save the club : Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:45 am  

isaac1 wrote:

Some times people have to learn that the only way to stop the hole getting deeper is to put down the shovel and walk away. For us, Hood realised this far too late.

The pledge was a vain attempt to buy time. It has bought 3 months and more debt as we miss PAYE payments. wouldve been better to go into admin before the pledge as the ddebts to HMRC wouldnt have been so high, and might just have been a rescueable sitiaution.


what if eh?

As per, you make a salient and highly valid point.

What is clear, is the debt level isn't what was expected or in the format it was expected when the initial review was carried out, and that is the real shame. I certainly wouldn't plough money into any business with such ridiculous monthly costs against negligible (and reducing) revenue streams particularly when they are highly likely to reduce further fairly quickly.

The past and how etc is at this stage, slightly immaterial, since brick bats won't solve this. I have my theories on how this may play out and I hope they're proven correct. By the same token, it may very well go the opposite way and the club is no longer. The level of historic debt and HMRC's extremely demanding nature at present, make this one hell of a difficult situation I would imagine.

Adey, zero need for the personal attack, it's futile and somewhat childish given the situation. I'm not concerned as to your perception on my credibility (there is no such thing on a faceless Internet forum), which you pre-determined because I had the audacity to contradict you with fact, especially re the ST vat.

I thoroughly appreciate your passion for the club, but your view of me is absolutely irrelevant given the facts I present. As for the manner, again, that's your jaundiced perception. I may find you patronising and sanctimonious, but pointing that out solves nothing. The caveat being, let's keep it relevant.

Re: could us fans save the club : Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:48 am  

isaac1 wrote:

wouldve been better to go into admin before the pledge as the ddebts to HMRC wouldnt have been so high, and might just have been a rescueable sitiaution.

Sorry, but totally wrong there.

On Good Friday, the club owed Jan, Feb and March PAYE. Three months. And the liability for April PAYE would arise in a week's time.

This Tuesday, the club owed May and June PAYE. Two months. The liability for July PAYE will arise a fortnight tomorrow.

On Good Friday, the club owed £250k VAT on the Odsal Lease, plus the normal VAT for the first quarter. Due end April. And a bit of VAT for April.

This Tuesday, the club still owed £250k VAT on the OIdsal Lease - but 5 months instalment payments had been agreed in the interim, I suspect after settling the PAYE arrears - and the normal VAT for 2 3/4 of the second quarter.

On both dates, the club owed £250k for tax on image rights going back many years, with payments agreed by three annual instalments.

On both dates, there would appear to have been an outstanding contention with HMRC regarding VAT on season tickets, the exposure for which has been reported as c. £200k.

The o/s tax position is actually somewhat better now than it was. And players have been paid, games have been played and time bought in the interim.

As far as I can tell, the club's financial position is no worse, and should actually be a better, than it was on Good Friday (as a result of the pledge). The administrator has said there is no prepack in place - which surprised and shocked me - so what a bloody good job we did NOT call in the administrators after Easter! At least there has been three months for people to see what they could do.

Re: could us fans save the club : Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:50 am  

RFL are indicating its a possibility http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/18609190

RFL are indicating its a possibility http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/18609190

Re: could us fans save the club : Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:53 am  

So what did our £400k+ actually pay off then? Just the 4 months' PAYE that was o/s as at Good Friday?
Or did we clear the bank o/d too, on which the previous directors had personal guarantees?

[Bullseye]

Re: could us fans save the club : Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:55 am  

That assumes a new club would be formed immediately out of the ashes doesn't it?

Seems unlikely.

Re: could us fans save the club : Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:59 am  

Bullpower2012 wrote: RFL are indicating its a possibility http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/18609190 "...under new ownership such as a supporters trust." Really?

Bullpower2012 wrote: RFL are indicating its a possibility http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/18609190 "...under new ownership such as a supporters trust." Really?

[Bullseye]

Re: could us fans save the club : Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:03 pm  

Duckman wrote:

"...under new ownership such as a supporters trust."

Really?

No chance. Even with months to prepare I would say it was unlikely.