Re: The staggering hypocrisy of the Prime Minister : Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:03 am  

Big Graeme wrote:

When did someone who left his child in a pub get to moralise about anything>

Surely there must be a servant who could "take one for the team" and be sacked?

Re: The staggering hypocrisy of the Prime Minister : Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:13 am  

Jimmy Carr is a very sharp comedian, one of the better ones to come on the scene of late. Has an edge, and doesn't give much of a fsck.

Credit to him for the above. Seems like a decent enough bloke to me.

Cameron though is an asswipe. The public purse has been utterly raped by banks and bankers, Vodafone and its ilk, with connivance of top staffers at HMRC (Private Eye has been on the case for years but nothing has been done about Hartnett's Vodafone deal). Carr is doing OK but really the tax he's likely to avoid is feck all compared with the trillions they could have gone after, but won't, for the simple reasons that (a) it's their mates that the deals are with and (b) that would not be the way to line up cosy jobs (like Hartnett) when they leave government or civil service.

Plus, HMRC had already at least several months ago made it well known that they were going to start looking closely at these schemes to see if they could close them down. (Which they could - it is to me a very clear scam, if you look at the reality of the situation) and even if they couldn't, legislation could be passed in a breath to do so, so singling out Jimmy Carr is just shameless showboating and sadly typical of the sort of people we now have 'running' our country.

Wonder what percentage tax Hartnett is now paying on his income?

At least, though, we will soon see a string of front page stories on the favourable tax arrangements of many leading Tories, who will no doubt be bollocking Cameron in private for poking a sleeping dog. I'd bet a pound to a penny that many of them are also into K2, which would be a damn interesting list, if someone would please leak it.

[DaveO]

Re: The staggering hypocrisy of the Prime Minister : Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:14 am  

cod'ead wrote:

I like Danny Baker's take on it:

Danny Baker ‏@prodnose

Wonder how many @jimmycarr tweeters are in Topshop using a Vodaphone bought via Amazon to express their 'tax-avoider' outrage.

Now that is a good one.

[DaveO]

Re: The staggering hypocrisy of the Prime Minister : Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:27 am  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

Plus, HMRC had already at least several months ago made it well known that they were going to start looking closely at these schemes to see if they could close them down. (Which they could - it is to me a very clear scam, if you look at the reality of the situation) and even if they couldn't, legislation could be passed in a breath to do so, so singling out Jimmy Carr is just shameless showboating and sadly typical of the sort of people we now have 'running' our country.

At least, though, we will soon see a string of front page stories on the favourable tax arrangements of many leading Tories, who will no doubt be bollocking Cameron in private for poking a sleeping dog. I'd bet a pound to a penny that many of them are also into K2, which would be a damn interesting list, if someone would please leak it.

If singling our Carr has that effect then that will be great. I think Carr is OK as a comedian but it's a bit rich (no pun intended) for him to be on a show like 10 O'Clock Live! that rips into the establishment and yet here he has been found out being as bad as them. He talk the talk but he doesn't walk the walk.

However that really is a side issue and if this gets more of who is doing this out into the open then all well and good.

As to legislation surely all that needs to be done is legislate what you can do to avoid tax and everything else is by definition classed as evasion?

So you can put some money into an ISA and you can get tax relief on pension contributions and that is it. Everything else is taxable and doing stuff like setting yourself up as a limited company when that is a sham just there for tax purposes is classed as evasion.

Re: The staggering hypocrisy of the Prime Minister : Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:51 am  

Wnidyone2012 wrote:

The thing that suprises me most in all of this is just how Carr manages to blag £3 millions+ per year

There are many people easily pleased and willing to spend their hard earned on this unfunny character IMHO.[/quote]


£3m isnt that much by the standard of today's comedians. Its a hugely lucrative profession, at least once they get on telly and graduate to the bigger arenas. They charge rock star prices but have only a fraction of the overheads. And its not hugely tiring so they can churn out the performances. Apparently Peter Kay made £20m from his last tour, he even took a cut of the car parking charges!

It used to be accepted that tax evasion was criminal, tax avoidance was ok. Now we have the added category of "aggressive tax avoidance". I'm not sure that someone like Carr would actually know where each category starts and ends.

[John_D]

Re: The staggering hypocrisy of the Prime Minister : Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:04 pm  

Cameron on Carr: "it's morally wrong".

Cameron on Philip Green: "I won't comment on an individual's taxes".

Re: The staggering hypocrisy of the Prime Minister : Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:13 pm  

DaveO wrote:

If singling our Carr has that effect then that will be great. I think Carr is OK as a comedian but it's a bit rich (no pun intended) for him to be on a show like 10 O'Clock Live! that rips into the establishment and yet here he has been found out being as bad as them. He talk the talk but he doesn't walk the walk.

However that really is a side issue and if this gets more of who is doing this out into the open then all well and good.

As to legislation surely all that needs to be done is legislate what you can do to avoid tax and everything else is by definition classed as evasion?

So you can put some money into an ISA and you can get tax relief on pension contributions and that is it. Everything else is taxable and doing stuff like setting yourself up as a limited company when that is a sham just there for tax purposes is classed as evasion.

The trouble with that is that everything done is perfectly legal. There is no law against setting up a service company. Tax laws on company income, profits etc are equally clear cut, as are the provisions regarding offshore taxation, non-doms tax position etc.

What I think HMRC don't do properly (and maybe this is the more specific legislation they need, I'm no expert) is catch what I'd call "associated operations". In the case of Jimmy Carr, how that would work is to look at the reality of the situation, which is that in truth, people are paying lots of money to watch Jimmy Carr, and Jimmy Carr is receiving that money as an income. If that much is clear (as in his case it seems to be) then all you need is HMRC to have the power to choose to tax him as if he was being paid it personally in cash, and choose not to tax it as it would if all the associated operations by which the cash arrives at the same place but via a circuitous route, were the correct taxable vehicle. These would instead be deemed associated operations and while not illegal, not effective for tax purposes.

However, I'd like to think that any such cases would start with the biggest fiddlers.

Re: The staggering hypocrisy of the Prime Minister : Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:27 pm  

Stand-Offish wrote:

Yes, and how unfunny he is.
I don't blame Carr or anyone for that matter offered these schemes.
The fact is that Cameron should do something about what is clearly bordering on tax evasion, but legal.
He'd stop his own tap and that of his mates though.
Meanwhile thank goodness for PAYE or we really would be shafted.
Sorry ... all of us on PAYE are shafted.

The question of legality is probably not black and white. The peddlars of these schemes get Counsel;s opnion but an opinion is just that. I am sure if HMG want to they can make a case that many of these are illegal. I hope they do and I hope not just the Carr's of this world but the people who push them get punished accordingly.

Re: The staggering hypocrisy of the Prime Minister : Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:56 pm  

I wonder if Cameron considers that his father was 'Morally wrong'? Cameron seniors fortune was made providing exactly the type of service that Carr took advantage of, including schemes based in Jersey! Cameron himself inherited some of the millions that his father left and only his UK inheritance was declared. Cameron has made an individuals tax arrangements a matter for public debate now and Id therefore like him to clarify whether he has benefited or indeed still retains any tax efficient off shore accounts. PMQ subject perhaps?

Re: The staggering hypocrisy of the Prime Minister : Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:58 pm  

Dally wrote:

The question of legality is probably not black and white. The peddlars of these schemes get Counsel;s opnion but an opinion is just that. I am sure if HMG want to they can make a case that many of these are illegal. I hope they do and I hope not just the Carr's of this world but the people who push them get punished accordingly.

From what I heard in a radio discussion yesterday, the main problem centres around HMRC's legal budget for counsel's opinion. Quite often it has been spent by the end of June each year, so they're running "in the dark" for nine months