FORUMS FORUMS






RLFANS.COM
Celebrating
25 years service to
the Rugby League
Community!

   WWW.RLFANS.COM • View topic - What's happened to our £1/2M Pledge money?
RankPostsTeam
Player Coach1894No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Mar 04 200816 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
15th Dec 17 13:028th Nov 17 12:58LINK
Milestone Posts
1000
2500
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530

What's happened to our £1/2M Pledge money? : Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:10 pm  
I understood that the £1,250,000 lease sale paid off the Bank and the RFL loan.
We still owe £250,000 for vat on that and the tax on Image Rights so the money didn't go there.

What other debts were so desperate for payment that the Pledge told us we must raise money immediately or face extinction?
Fantastic response from all Bulls fans but - Where was the money spent?
And why are we still in a financially sh*t position after this effort?

Let's be real - £1/2M is a seriously ginormous amount of money to disappear into a black hole.
So where did it go?
mat 
RankPostsTeam
Player Coach9550
JoinedServiceReputation
Jun 22 200519 years298th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
19th Apr 24 17:435th Apr 24 15:21LINK
Milestone Posts
5000
10000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
bradford

First yearly instalment of image rights payment and wages/vat for that month at a guess
mat 
RankPostsTeam
Player Coach9550
JoinedServiceReputation
Jun 22 200519 years298th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
19th Apr 24 17:435th Apr 24 15:21LINK
Milestone Posts
5000
10000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
bradford

mat wrote:
First yearly instalment of image rights payment and first installment of stadium vat and wages/vat for that month at a guess
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Board Member14145No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Dec 22 200122 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
16th Aug 20 18:2727th Oct 19 01:15LINK
Milestone Posts
10000
15000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
At the Gates of Delirium

Jan and Feb (and prob Mar) PAYE; paying off the overdraft the bank called in. April salaries.
Nothus 
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Player Coach5872No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Mar 04 200519 years244th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
19th Apr 24 15:307th Mar 24 16:30LINK
Milestone Posts
5000
10000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Bradford

The lease sale didn't pay off the bank did it? I thought the lease sale was to a) pay back the £700k rfl loan and b) give us some much needed capital.
One of the main reasons the pledge came to fruition was because of the bank o/d being reduced.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Board Member14145No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Dec 22 200122 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
16th Aug 20 18:2727th Oct 19 01:15LINK
Milestone Posts
10000
15000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
At the Gates of Delirium

bobsmyuncle wrote:
I understood that the £1,250,000 lease sale paid off the Bank and the RFL loan.
We still owe £250,000 for vat on that and the tax on Image Rights so the money didn't go there.

What other debts were so desperate for payment that the Pledge told us we must raise money immediately or face extinction?
Fantastic response from all Bulls fans but - Where was the money spent?
And why are we still in a financially sh*t position after this effort?

Let's be real - £1/2M is a seriously ginormous amount of money to disappear into a black hole.
So where did it go?

The black hole -I have been calling it that for three months now - predates the pledge.

The RFL loan was apparently 700k. The club received 1,500k including VAT (most still outstanding) for the lease sale. That means we had 800k available, even after repaying all of the loan that for some reason the club overlooked telling us about. Plus we had the money from the season ticket sales -or should have had.

The 500k pledge was supposedly to replace the overdraft facility and the half (?) of the RFL loan that was repaid much earlier than they say they expected. That would then enable the Jan and Feb PAYE and the April salaries to be paid, around 300k in total, and we presumed a big dent in the VAT.

So that suggests the 800k should really have been maybe 1,150k. Plus the season ticket monies.

Yet that lot seems to have just disappeared. The black hole, as I have called it.

So where the hell did it go? Possibilities include:

- simply paying the salaries and other running costs from around October; on the assumption that other income was far far less than ongoing costs;

- paying off some other loans or liabilities we were unaware of (maybe including the last lot re Harrisgate);

PH has said he was told by the club's auditors (wtf was the club's financial controller playing at if PH needed the bloody auditors to tell him the 2011 results, not her?) that the club made 250k (IIRC) profit in 2011? If that included 1,250k profit on sale of lease, (no book cost, remember) than that would mean an operating loss for 2011 of about 1m, would it not? If that is right, then it would suggest that the "losses of 100k/month" the new lot have referred to may not be as far fetched as many assumed? And that therefore the club's finances were totally unsustainable as they were?

Everything to me is pointing to a business that was hopelessly short of income, where the only way of cutting operating costs was by seriously hacking the playing staff budget - since what the hell else was there to cut?

This does all, unfortunately, lend credibility to the few bits the new lot are choosing to release about the cash requirement being larger than expected. Not to pay past bills but to pay ongoing operating costs.

I have repeatedly asked where the balance of the lease sale money - and the VAT on it - went, since to me that is crucial to a proper understanding of what the hell happened. I had already written off most of the 2012 season ticket income as being used to keep the club afloat in Q4 2011, which would itself have been a massive issue. We will never now know if the previous lot DID have a viable business plan in place and realistic expectations of income to plug the funding gap. All we know is that we bought some time. But from the sort of numbers being talked about or that one can deduce, The ongoing costs less income funding gap may be so large that at best we can look forward to a future of mediocrity.

And probably not at Odsal.

That is the best I can deduce from the available information.
RankPostsTeam
Player Coach1894No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Mar 04 200816 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
15th Dec 17 13:028th Nov 17 12:58LINK
Milestone Posts
1000
2500
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530

Adeybull wrote:
Jan and Feb (and prob Mar) PAYE; paying off the overdraft the bank called in. April salaries.

If it was true that the Bulls had paid all Paye/Nic taxes up to March and a repayment deal had been made re vat on the lease
Then why would HMRC have taken the draconian action of a winding up of the Bulls?
Both of us know that such action usually comes after prolonged negotiations regarding large amounts of continuously underpaid tax.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Board Member14145No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Dec 22 200122 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
16th Aug 20 18:2727th Oct 19 01:15LINK
Milestone Posts
10000
15000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
At the Gates of Delirium

Re: What's happened to our £1/2M Pledge money? : Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:09 pm  
April PAYE.

And the current policy within HMRC as I understand it, having been fleeced by sports clubs too many times, is to go in heavy hard and fast when taxes are overdue and there is a history of non-payment.

That way, you at least force the issue and have a chance of getting some payment rather than take your chances amongst the ranks of the unsecureds, of which you are usually easily the largest.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Star1241No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Jan 17 201113 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
20th Nov 15 22:5511th Jun 15 20:48LINK
Milestone Posts
1000
2500
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
The Land Of Hope & Optimism

Its nothing to do owing for PAYE/NICs :WHISTLE:
RankPostsTeam
International Board Member6038No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Apr 10 200222 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
3rd Mar 17 10:5527th Feb 17 17:36LINK
Milestone Posts
5000
10000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Bradford

It seems that the hugely discounted season tickets was a massive gamble that failed badly. And rather than recognise that, the error was componded by being repeated for a second season.

It was said at the time that the cheap tickets could be economically justified by increased sponsorship, merchandising and bar takings. But it was clear after a couple of games that the actual numbers in the ground were much less than the reported attendances, which would have been obvious to sponsors. The beer queues didnt increase and my nephew who bought a season ticket but only went to 3 or 4 games because of work commitments didnt buy a shirt.

Its likely that we've been making significant monthly losses since the start of last season, but were kept going by the RFL money which has now run out. The £500k has just plugged the gap for another couple of months.
Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 177 guests

REPLY

Subject: 
Message:
   
Please note using apple style emoji's can result in posting failures.
Use the FULL EDITOR to better format content or upload images, be notified of replies etc...

Return to Bradford Bulls


RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
38m
Smith out ASAP
The Eclipse
285
Recent
RD 8 Huddersfield Giants H
Once were Lo
114
Recent
Castleford at home
Zig
41
Recent
Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE
Zig
2069
Recent
WIRE YED Prediction Competition Leigh Home
Bobby Digita
20
Recent
Saints A next up - IAKOW
Hasbag
146
Recent
Game - Song Titles
Boss Hog
35364
Recent
BORED The Band Name Game
Boss Hog
57201
Recent
DoR - New Coach - Investor & Adam - New signings
B0NES
221
Recent
Barrow v Dons Sunday 21/4/24 3pm
Double Movem
9
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
1m
21 Man Squads - Wire v Leopards v
Lower Crease
12
1m
Castleford at home
Zig
41
1m
2024 Challenge Cup Semi-Finals Draws
MadDogg
27
2m
Transfer Talk / Rumour thread V4
Shabino
8796
3m
Stadium and other issues
Trojan Horse
2265
3m
Smith out ASAP
The Eclipse
285
3m
York A
Pyrah123
28
4m
Huddersfield Giants Fight Back To Beat The Rhinos
RLFANS News
1
4m
David Armstrong potential signing
LeythIg
10
5m
At Batley
Trojan Horse
12
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
Huddersfield Giants Fight Back To Beat The Rhinos
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
Squad players
BigTime
1
TODAY
21 Man Squads - Wire v Leopards v
Lower Crease
12
TODAY
Squad for Leigh
matt_wire
32
TODAY
FINANCES
cowfax
14
TODAY
AI predictions
Rugby Raider
3
TODAY
Sheffield Game
REDWHITEANDB
3
TODAY
Injury update
dboy
11
TODAY
Seagulls
Hudd-Shay
23
TODAY
Rugby leagie coaches - analysis request
Wires71
13
TODAY
Castleford at home
Zig
41
TODAY
David Armstrong potential signing
LeythIg
10
TODAY
France v England Internationals Confirmed for 29th June 2024
RLFANS News
1
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
Huddersfield Giants Fight Back..
110
France v England International..
903
Warrington Stun St Helens In C..
1789
2024 Challenge Cup Semi-Finals..
1332
Wigan Warriors Demolish Woeful..
1452
Hull KR Eliminate the Cup Hold..
1618
Bradford Bulls Come From Behin..
1943
Bradford Bulls Beat Feathersto..
2448
Giants Thrash FC Again For Top..
2406
Warrington Brush Aside The Rhi..
1982
Wigan Coast to Victory over Le..
2059
Giants Come From Behind For Ea..
2303
Salford Red Devils Defeat Leig..
2862
Catalans Dragons Win See-Saw E..
2248
St Helens Win Derby Game Over ..
2257
POSTSONLINEREGISTRATIONSRECORD
19.58M 1,524 80,03214,103
LOGIN HERE
or REGISTER for more features!.

When you register you get access to the live match scores, live match chat and you can post in the discussions on the forums.
RLFANS Match Centre
 TODAY
National Rugby League 2024-R7
06:00
Penrith
v
Wests
08:30
Gold Coast
v
Manly
12:35
Brisbane
v
Canberra
Mens Super League XXVIII-R8
15:00
Warrington
v
Leigh
17:30
Catalans
v
Hull KR
Championship 2024-R5
18:00
Toulouse
v
Whitehaven
 TOMORROW
League One 2024-R5
Hunslet
v
Workington
National Rugby League 2024-R7
05:00
Canterbury
v
Newcastle
07:05
Cronulla
v
NQL Cowboys
Womens Super League 2024-R1
12:00
Wire W
v
FeatherstoneW
12:00
York V
v
St.HelensW
League One 2024-R5
14:30
Crusaders
v
Rochdale
Mens Super League XXVIII-R8
15:00
LondonB
v
Salford
Championship 2024-R5
15:00
Barrow
v
Doncaster
15:00
Batley
v
Wakefield
ALL SCORES PROVIDED BY RLFANS.COM (SETTINGS)
Matches on TV
Sat 20th Apr
SL
15:00
Warrington-Leigh
SL
17:30
Catalans-Hull KR
Sun 21st Apr
SL
15:00
LondonB-Salford
Thu 25th Apr
SL
20:00
St.Helens-Huddersfield
Fri 26th Apr
SL
20:00
Castleford-LondonB
SL
20:00
Hull KR-Wigan
SL
20:00
Leigh-Catalans
Sat 27th Apr
SL
15:00
Salford-Warrington
Sun 28th Apr
SL
15:00
Hull FC-Leeds
Sat 18th May
CC2024
13:15
Hull KR-Wigan
WOMCC2024
11:15
St.HelensW-York V
Sun 19th May
CC2024
15:15
Huddersfield-Warrington
WOMCC2024
12:30
WiganW-LeedsW
Sat 29th Jun
MINT2024
17:00
France M-England M
WINT2024
14:30
FRANCE W-ENGLAND W
Sat 17th Aug
SL
18:00
Warrington-Leeds
SL
15:30
Wigan-St.Helens
SL
13:00
Hull FC-LondonB
Sun 18th Aug
SL
13:00
Leigh-Salford
SL
15:30
Catalans-Hull KR
Fri 19th Apr
SL 8 Leeds24-30Huddersfield
SL 8 St.Helens58-0Hull FC
SL 8 Wigan36-14Castleford
NRL 7 St.George30-12NZ Warriors
NRL 7 Parramatta16-44Dolphins
WSL2024 1 LeedsW66-4Hudds W
WSL2024 1 WiganW18-4BarrowW
Thu 18th Apr
NRL 7 Sydney12-18Melbourne
Sun 14th Apr
CC2024 7 Castleford6-60Wigan
CC2024 7 St.Helens8-31Warrington
NRL 6 Wests12-24St.George
NRL 6 Canberra21-20Gold Coast
CH 4 Barrow27-20Dewsbury
CH 4 Doncaster4-46Featherstone
CH 4 Swinton4-22Sheffield
CH 4 Whitehaven12-25Batley
CH 4 Widnes40-14Halifax
CH 4 York6-50Wakefield
L1 4 Oldham46-10Cornwall
L1 4 Midlands26-30Hunslet
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
St.Helens 8 196 58 138 12
Wigan 7 224 92 132 12
Catalans 7 172 86 86 12
Warrington 7 214 98 116 10
Hull KR 7 182 83 99 10
Huddersfield 8 206 150 56 10
 
Salford 7 151 154 -3 8
Leeds 8 140 152 -12 8
Leigh 6 116 126 -10 2
Castleford 8 112 264 -152 2
Hull FC 8 86 310 -224 2
LondonB 7 70 296 -226 0
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 4 154 36 118 8
Widnes 4 136 38 98 8
Sheffield 4 114 62 52 8
Bradford 4 84 78 6 6
Featherstone 4 96 68 28 4
Halifax 4 66 89 -23 4
 
Barrow 4 72 101 -29 4
Whitehaven 4 69 105 -36 4
Toulouse 4 68 77 -9 2
Batley 4 59 78 -19 2
Dewsbury 4 60 79 -19 2
Swinton 4 50 82 -32 2
Doncaster 4 66 134 -68 2
York 4 54 121 -67 0
RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
38m
Smith out ASAP
The Eclipse
285
Recent
RD 8 Huddersfield Giants H
Once were Lo
114
Recent
Castleford at home
Zig
41
Recent
Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE
Zig
2069
Recent
WIRE YED Prediction Competition Leigh Home
Bobby Digita
20
Recent
Saints A next up - IAKOW
Hasbag
146
Recent
Game - Song Titles
Boss Hog
35364
Recent
BORED The Band Name Game
Boss Hog
57201
Recent
DoR - New Coach - Investor & Adam - New signings
B0NES
221
Recent
Barrow v Dons Sunday 21/4/24 3pm
Double Movem
9
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
1m
21 Man Squads - Wire v Leopards v
Lower Crease
12
1m
Castleford at home
Zig
41
1m
2024 Challenge Cup Semi-Finals Draws
MadDogg
27
2m
Transfer Talk / Rumour thread V4
Shabino
8796
3m
Stadium and other issues
Trojan Horse
2265
3m
Smith out ASAP
The Eclipse
285
3m
York A
Pyrah123
28
4m
Huddersfield Giants Fight Back To Beat The Rhinos
RLFANS News
1
4m
David Armstrong potential signing
LeythIg
10
5m
At Batley
Trojan Horse
12
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
Huddersfield Giants Fight Back To Beat The Rhinos
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
Squad players
BigTime
1
TODAY
21 Man Squads - Wire v Leopards v
Lower Crease
12
TODAY
Squad for Leigh
matt_wire
32
TODAY
FINANCES
cowfax
14
TODAY
AI predictions
Rugby Raider
3
TODAY
Sheffield Game
REDWHITEANDB
3
TODAY
Injury update
dboy
11
TODAY
Seagulls
Hudd-Shay
23
TODAY
Rugby leagie coaches - analysis request
Wires71
13
TODAY
Castleford at home
Zig
41
TODAY
David Armstrong potential signing
LeythIg
10
TODAY
France v England Internationals Confirmed for 29th June 2024
RLFANS News
1
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
Huddersfield Giants Fight Back..
110
France v England International..
903
Warrington Stun St Helens In C..
1789
2024 Challenge Cup Semi-Finals..
1332
Wigan Warriors Demolish Woeful..
1452
Hull KR Eliminate the Cup Hold..
1618
Bradford Bulls Come From Behin..
1943
Bradford Bulls Beat Feathersto..
2448
Giants Thrash FC Again For Top..
2406
Warrington Brush Aside The Rhi..
1982
Wigan Coast to Victory over Le..
2059
Giants Come From Behind For Ea..
2303
Salford Red Devils Defeat Leig..
2862
Catalans Dragons Win See-Saw E..
2248
St Helens Win Derby Game Over ..
2257


Visit the RLFANS.COM SHOP
for more merchandise!