6 years on from the AP 'vision' : Sat Jun 16, 2018 11:52 pm  

I was re-reading 'the dentist's diary' after looking for more info on the Eva Hardaker memorial trophy, but this extract from no.425 made me think about what has happened since Pearson took over and the vision/master plan he had for the youngsters/academy set-up and the club.

"What a night it was again for the FC youngsters in the England Academy, after what turned out to be a famous victory at Leigh on Friday.

Come on guys admit it, at such a quiet time, how good was it to read of the success of our lads in that two game series? With all three playing really well and Abdull kicking the goals, they all got on the score sheet as they starred in what was hailed as ‘an historic victory’. In addition Callum Lancaster played in the first game and back home Harry Tyson –Wilson is tearing it up in training as it appears he is already looked upon as the ’first reserve’ half back behind Pryce and Sneyd.


But most importantly for me, this also provided the average FC fan with a first indication that all the investment and faith Pearson has put into developing the young players at the Club is paying off. Two years ago he went on and on about how good our 16 and 17 year olds were going to be and there is little doubt that he has been proved right. Yes, they all have a lot of work to do and the leap to the first team is still a big one to make, but we should all be very proud of our lads and Adam should, for once, get a feeling that it’s at last starting to come together as his youth development master plan of 2012 appears to be coming good."

how many from the 2012/13/14 seasons of 16/17 year old have made any impact or got into the first team proper?
JA on and off after a season at the dobbins, was reportedly on his way back there before his injury. Turgut last year as a stop gap for injuries but is out of favour. Lancaster and Logan again only due to injuries and that started back in 2014, Lancaster is gone, Logan gets a shout when we are down to bare bones, Tyson-Wilson's are gone, James Cunningham not given a decent go and was announced in the England knights side earlier this season, Jack Downs doesn't seem to be anywhere near good/big enough for the role he's meant to be playing, Litten might well be good enough for SL but is shunned by Radford to shoehorn other players in the side. Any others from that period?
Brad Fash this season is really the only one to make any impact whatsoever or any period since Radford took over.

Before Pearson came along Crooks, Lineham, Shaul, Green, Bowden came through the academy at some point and have either made a big impression, cemented a first XVII spot or made a lot of appearances (and moved on to other clubs). There doesn't seem to be a good return from those years of the junior ranks from the 2012-14 16/17 year olds aside from Fash to "come good".

What has happened that the investment has not paid dividends, that the well has all but dried up of top talent coming through particularly from that period that Wilf raved about?

Re: 6 years on from the AP 'vision' : Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:05 am  

I think what has happened across the squad is that Radford has improved it. Rather than persist with HTW, for example, he went out and got Jake Connor (whom you described at the time as "another lowly clubs cast-off that has no pedigree") Today one is on the plane to Denver and one is playing at York. A great example of Radford's judgement IMO.

Not all players go on to fulfil early potential and calls have to be made for the benefit of the squad. Using your investment analogy you need a diverse portfolio and to buy and sell at the right time to manage risk. Some parts of the portfolio and some cohorts will have higher or lower returns vs the cost put in, e.g Kelly's initial low cost deal without a fee.

You call out Ben Crooks who despite having a year in Australia and the tutelage of Powell is now playing in the Championship. Are there a group of top 8 SL clubs circling for Abdull as there were for Bienek? Last week we beat Salford with 10 local players and debuted Harris and Scott at Magic so in the round it can't be said he isn't giving young players opportunities. Radford is getting most things right in terms of squad mix and if Turgut isn't getting a game but Downs/Scott/Logan/Lane are I'd trust his judgement in the context of developing the whole squad and the pecking order. If we can bring another forward in I think the squad Radford has built has great balance.

Re: 6 years on from the AP 'vision' : Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:42 am  

It would be interesting to see any definitive information but it seems to me there are more kids from our youth set up who have come through to the first team under radford than any time since pre SL. If we'd have lost the number of first teamers to injury we have this year in the hetehrington years we'd have been sat at the bottom of the table for sure

Not all young kids make it and it's as much, or maybe even more down to genetics and attitude than it is due to coaching. Radford has plenty of weaknesses but if you're trying to claim youth development as one I think you're flogging another of your dead horses

Re: 6 years on from the AP 'vision' : Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:03 am  

Jake the Peg wrote:

It would be interesting to see any definitive information but it seems to me there are more kids from our youth set up who have come through to the first team under radford than any time since pre SL. If we'd have lost the number of first teamers to injury we have this year in the hetehrington years we'd have been sat at the bottom of the table for sure

Not all young kids make it and it's as much, or maybe even more down to genetics and attitude than it is due to coaching. Radford has plenty of weaknesses but if you're trying to claim youth development as one I think you're flogging another of your dead horses

100%
Radford (and the rest of his backroom team) have done more for youth development than anyone I remember. Back to Back CC wins and a lot of progress. As you say, during the Hetherington era we'd be looking at a lot worse league position given our current injury problems. We are seriously missing Sneyd and some size, but not a lot we can do about it.

Re: 6 years on from the AP 'vision' : Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:00 am  

The OP shows our favourite Radford hater has lost none of his bile during his welcome break. Anyway to look at some of the bilge that he has spouted a 17 year old from the 2014 season would only be 21 now, not a common age for a SL regular in any team. Looking at previous academy representative teams the majority will end up with an unexceptional SL career of a few games and only a few will become club stalwarts, let alone stars, that's just the way it is at any club. Of the Hull ones Lancaster clearly hasn't got the temperement for the game, the Tyson Wilsons haven't been able to step up to the extra physical demands of SL and the others are still at the club. That's without even considering any injury setbacks the players have suffered. It is now make or break time for them - some will kick on others may have gone as far as they are ever going to. Whatever happens next I can't see any obvious faults in the coach not giving them a chance and in most cases the players themselves carelessly harming their prospects with poor attitude. Its a big step from academy to SL, the opponents are bigger, stronger and smarter than anything they have been used to and any weaknesses in their game will be ruthlessly exploited by them. Nowhere in the game do you get a 100% conversion rate from the juniors to the first team so why hold Radford to an impossible standard?

On the contrary Radford has done very well on youth development, the youth scene is much weaker in Hull than Wigan, St Helens and the West Riding and there are 2 clubs competing for a share of this limited pool.

Finally why no mention of Matongo? Its not as if he's small and inconspicuous. Local lad made good, England Knights squad and a better prospect than Fash. Doesn't fit the narrative though does he?

Re: 6 years on from the AP 'vision' : Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:10 am  

… you can knock Lineham off his academy list as well, he was signed from York.

Re: 6 years on from the AP 'vision' : Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:14 am  

knockersbumpMKII wrote:

I was re-reading 'the dentist's diary' after looking for more info on the Eva Hardaker memorial trophy, but this extract from no.425 made me think about what has happened since Pearson took over and the vision/master plan he had for the youngsters/academy set-up and the club.

"What a night it was again for the FC youngsters in the England Academy, after what turned out to be a famous victory at Leigh on Friday.

Come on guys admit it, at such a quiet time, how good was it to read of the success of our lads in that two game series? With all three playing really well and Abdull kicking the goals, they all got on the score sheet as they starred in what was hailed as ‘an historic victory’. In addition Callum Lancaster played in the first game and back home Harry Tyson –Wilson is tearing it up in training as it appears he is already looked upon as the ’first reserve’ half back behind Pryce and Sneyd.


But most importantly for me, this also provided the average FC fan with a first indication that all the investment and faith Pearson has put into developing the young players at the Club is paying off. Two years ago he went on and on about how good our 16 and 17 year olds were going to be and there is little doubt that he has been proved right. Yes, they all have a lot of work to do and the leap to the first team is still a big one to make, but we should all be very proud of our lads and Adam should, for once, get a feeling that it’s at last starting to come together as his youth development master plan of 2012 appears to be coming good."

how many from the 2012/13/14 seasons of 16/17 year old have made any impact or got into the first team proper?
JA on and off after a season at the dobbins, was reportedly on his way back there before his injury. Turgut last year as a stop gap for injuries but is out of favour. Lancaster and Logan again only due to injuries and that started back in 2014, Lancaster is gone, Logan gets a shout when we are down to bare bones, Tyson-Wilson's are gone, James Cunningham not given a decent go and was announced in the England knights side earlier this season, Jack Downs doesn't seem to be anywhere near good/big enough for the role he's meant to be playing, Litten might well be good enough for SL but is shunned by Radford to shoehorn other players in the side. Any others from that period?
Brad Fash this season is really the only one to make any impact whatsoever or any period since Radford took over.

Before Pearson came along Crooks, Lineham, Shaul, Green, Bowden came through the academy at some point and have either made a big impression, cemented a first XVII spot or made a lot of appearances (and moved on to other clubs). There doesn't seem to be a good return from those years of the junior ranks from the 2012-14 16/17 year olds aside from Fash to "come good".

What has happened that the investment has not paid dividends, that the well has all but dried up of top talent coming through particularly from that period that Wilf raved about?

At that time I seem to remember it was just about all the hope we had how things change eh? Let me know if I can help with the Eva Hardaker Cup. I'll have to get a better crystal ball in future!

Re: 6 years on from the AP 'vision' : Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:29 am  

What about all the young players that have come through though? How many young players released by Hull have gone on to tear it up in super league?
If anything, LR has made first team players out of people like Fash and Masi who may not have made it under another regime.
He’s also improved talents like Hakim and Connor.
You can’t keep quoting Ben Crooks. He’s Done nothing of note since leaving, and was lucky to get in the dream team anyway.
What we have employed is a ruthlessness seems at other successful clubs. We used to sign other teams cast offs. We used to take young players from Leeds on loan and help Gary Hetherington develop his academy. Not anymore.
If they don’t make it at hull now, it won’t be that they haven’t been given the correct support or opportunity.

Re: 6 years on from the AP 'vision' : Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:42 am  

Plus, don’t forget if it had just been down to Peter Gentle, Shaul would probably have left and Shannon McDonnell signed on an expensive long term deal. Tom Lineham wouldn’t even have been given an opportunity due to us signing Nick Younquest.
Wasn’t it LR who talked him out of both deals?

Re: 6 years on from the AP 'vision' : Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:13 pm  

There have been some pretty moronic posters on RLFans over the years, but none quite so consistently stupid as Bumpy. I'm amazed he can work out how to even make a post, never mind fill it with such nonsense.