Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:42 pm  

Good luck to all those watching the Euro 2012 final tomorrow, enjoy your Spain-induced coma

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:06 pm  

100% Wire wrote:

Good luck to all those watching the Euro 2012 final tomorrow, enjoy your Spain-induced coma

Can't wait pal, if the game's as good as the first game between these two, we'll be in for a treat. Did you watch the first game?

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:33 pm  

Roddy B wrote:

Can't wait pal, if the game's as good as the first game between these two, we'll be in for a treat. Did you watch the first game?

Yessir i did, Spain were boring in that game too. I understand the premise that they're playing to their strengths, and it takes skill and composure to do so, but there's a certain team from the Potteries that get slaughtered in the media and on here (i find it strange that it's mostly Liverpool fans that give said team the stick though) for playing to THEIR strengths. While Stoke's play certainly isn't pretty, they do the job, without boring the other team to death in the process like Spain do. Some people think that Spain are being labelled as 'boring' because people are jealous of their success or whatnot, but i don't buy it personally, folk are more likely fed up of them passing it around in their own half for 20mins and creating nothing,(reminds me of the simpsons episode where they go to watch a football match and they watch the ball get passed around the centre circle haha), then the ridiculous fawning over Xavi et al because they've completed 300 passes per game or something, 290 of them being passes you or i could make after a night on the sauce on a sunday league pitch. I hope Italy wipe the floor with them

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:10 am  

100% Wire wrote:

Yessir i did, Spain were boring in that game too. I understand the premise that they're playing to their strengths, and it takes skill and composure to do so, but there's a certain team from the Potteries that get slaughtered in the media and on here (i find it strange that it's mostly Liverpool fans that give said team the stick though) for playing to THEIR strengths. While Stoke's play certainly isn't pretty, they do the job, without boring the other team to death in the process like Spain do. Some people think that Spain are being labelled as 'boring' because people are jealous of their success or whatnot, but i don't buy it personally, folk are more likely fed up of them passing it around in their own half for 20mins and creating nothing,(reminds me of the simpsons episode where they go to watch a football match and they watch the ball get passed around the centre circle haha), then the ridiculous fawning over Xavi et al because they've completed 300 passes per game or something, 290 of them being passes you or i could make after a night on the sauce on a sunday league pitch. I hope Italy wipe the floor with them

When have I ever criticised Stoke for playing to their strengths? I criticise Stoke for playing a brand of football that requires minimal ability, minimal skill as a coach and involves very little tactically. I think any coach that can't try and coach his side to play, or doesn't try to get his side to play, is a pretty average coach who is hiding an inability in his coaching. I get that you can't take everybody on, that you can't out-pass certain sides, but if your plan A for every game is to get men behind the ball, punt it long and hope for the best on set-pieces, you are below average and play the game in its poorest form. Yes, it can get safe results, but why limit yourselves to playing like a bunch of scrubs? You can defend first but still play good football, watch any game on the continent and you'll regularly see away sides sitting back and picking the opposition off on the counter, but they still play and try to craft things out in their play.

What Spain do clearly requires ability, England couldn't pass it like they do against school kids, let alone actual professional sides. The game between Spain and Italy in the groups was a class game. Both sides played really well. Quality-wise it was easily the best game of the groups. Entertainment-wise is a matter of opinion, but I thought it was great to watch.

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:30 am  

Asim wrote:

Germany didn't change their style whatsoever as far as I could tell, just tinkered with their personnel.

For all the merits of Germany's play, and intent, they don't have the ability to control the game like Spain, and Italy, can.

They played far more slowly and dwelt on the ball far longer IMO, which suited the Italians down to the ground. Basically they tried to play Italy at their own game and were on a hiding to nothing. I thought Ozil played wider than he had in their other games to accomodate Kroos to sit on Pirlo and had his poorest game as a result, whilst Kroos didn't affect Pirlo in the slightest and was poor with the ball at his feet. When they brought Reus on at half time, even though Podolski had also been bobbins it should have been for Kroos so that they reverted back to their usual set-up.

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:48 am  

I'm sure this Spanish team will go down as a great one and at the last Euros they were clearly head and shoulders above the rest. However, as has been said on here, Barcelona are a better team and you could probably add another couple of European club teams who would be more than capable of giving them a game, possibly winning too.

I read a stat recently that said Spain have scored something like 16 goals in their last twelve World Cup matches (or Euros/combo something like that) which is hardly eye watering. Winning 1-0 with 75% possession may well be effective and it's surely better than the old Italian defend-a-lead days but is it really that great? Barcelona entertain. When they go 1-0 up, they continue to probe and poke against all teams, noticeably when they dished out a footballing lesson to United a couple of years ago. Spain don't appear capable of doing that so whilst they may well make history tonight I hope nostalgia doesn't infer on them the same kind of majesty that it does on Brazil, Holland and Germany from the early 70s or France from the 80s (unless they turn it on tonight of course).

Some people use effectiveness to celebrate achievement, which is fine, but I've always enjoyed more the magic of artistry over the efficiency of machines and without that directness Spain just feel like that Italian throwback supported by spin doctors who want to twist Stuart Hall's "beautiful game" words to suit their own argument. The beautiful game is not just about winning, it is about Carlos Alberto, Cruyff, Eder, Platini and Maradona or style, flair, panache and entertainment if you prefer.

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:55 am  

carl_spackler wrote:

They played far more slowly and dwelt on the ball far longer IMO, which suited the Italians down to the ground. Basically they tried to play Italy at their own game and were on a hiding to nothing. I thought Ozil played wider than he had in their other games to accomodate Kroos to sit on Pirlo and had his poorest game as a result, whilst Kroos didn't affect Pirlo in the slightest and was poor with the ball at his feet. When they brought Reus on at half time, even though Podolski had also been bobbins it should have been for Kroos so that they reverted back to their usual set-up.

There was a change of personnel but I think that was more down to Mueller being quite unconvincing in the tournament, Kroos was actually a regular starter throughout the qualifying campaign and you wouldn't go as gung-ho as they did against Greece by playing Reus instead, though I certainly wouldn't have shifted Ozil out wide. In my opinion I didn't see any deliberate change in their style of play they just didn't play well or just as importantly, weren't allowed, to by Italy.

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:06 pm  

McClennan wrote:

Some people use effectiveness to celebrate achievement, which is fine, but I've always enjoyed more the magic of artistry over the efficiency of machines and without that directness Spain just feel like that Italian throwback supported by spin doctors who want to twist Stuart Hall's "beautiful game" words to suit their own argument. The beautiful game is not just about winning, it is about Carlos Alberto, Cruyff, Eder, Platini and Maradona or style, flair, panache and entertainment if you prefer.

Would you not put Iniesta in that bracket of player though?

As has already been mentioned, people have to realise what Spain are playing against isn't like the older days of football. These sides are intense and quite sophisticated defensively, Spain constantly keep the ball to try and work angles, to find space and the opportunity to create something. The problem is, when you're playing against almost a full side behind the ball, a defence sat in its own box and a midfield that is doing its all to disrupt your players, it's incredibly hard to even keep the ball against, let alone create numerous chances. They have failed to replace David Villa, but many sides would struggle to do that. There aren't many forwards in the world as complete as him, he threatens from deep, out wide and creates havoc with his movement behind the defenders. I think they should give one of Pedro or Navas a start over David Silva, purely because Silva hasn't been very effective without having a forward that he can link up with, so they may as well try something different, a little more direct.

Every time Barca have lost/been KOd from a competition, people have brought up this exact same debate as what we're having about Spain. "They're boring", "pretty little triangles", "pass, pass, pass, but no penetration", "they create little against a good defensive side", and they're half right. There will be occasions when a really well set up defence will outplay a great attack, like Inter did, like Chelsea did, like United did, and there will always be people quick to get off their seat and claim Barca as boring, wasteful and a one man team, it's the way of the football fan, but I imagine those that aren't so simple would be able to rise above all that and see things for what they are.

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:44 pm  

Roddy B wrote:

Would you not put Iniesta in that bracket of player though?

As has already been mentioned, people have to realise what Spain are playing against isn't like the older days of football. These sides are intense and quite sophisticated defensively, Spain constantly keep the ball to try and work angles, to find space and the opportunity to create something. The problem is, when you're playing against almost a full side behind the ball, a defence sat in its own box and a midfield that is doing its all to disrupt your players, it's incredibly hard to even keep the ball against, let alone create numerous chances. They have failed to replace David Villa, but many sides would struggle to do that. There aren't many forwards in the world as complete as him, he threatens from deep, out wide and creates havoc with his movement behind the defenders. I think they should give one of Pedro or Navas a start over David Silva, purely because Silva hasn't been very effective without having a forward that he can link up with, so they may as well try something different, a little more direct.

Completely agree. It's not a fault of the players that their coach hasn't managed to convert effectively this control of the game into goals. I suppose that's where there is a similarity with RL i.e. to compete at the top level you need to be able to demonstrate ball control but to succeed at RL you need to have a bit more about you with the ball in hand. Silva has probably been their best player for me (obvious degree of bias there) and it's a shame Torres (who people on here will know I think is overrated) or whoever hasn't been given the full opportunity to do things. After all, Torres has had success with them before and critical success too.

Roddy B wrote:

Every time Barca have lost/been KOd from a competition, people have brought up this exact same debate as what we're having about Spain. "They're boring", "pretty little triangles", "pass, pass, pass, but no penetration", "they create little against a good defensive side", and they're half right. There will be occasions when a really well set up defence will outplay a great attack, like Inter did, like Chelsea did, like United did, and there will always be people quick to get off their seat and claim Barca as boring, wasteful and a one man team, it's the way of the football fan, but I imagine those that aren't so simple would be able to rise above all that and see things for what they are.

Fair comment that bud. Sport, for me though, is all about competition/entertainment. I've seen enough NRL games to know that technical efficiency can be pleasing, for some, but it's no substitute for the thrills of putting on a show. I think it must be my RL upbringing which causes me to question it because when the Kangaroos gave us serious RL lessons in the 80s they did more than just win. They thrilled us and this Spanish side certainly has the players to do the same. In the same way that "just because they aren't winning 4-0, 5-0" doesn't necessarily mean they are boring, being "technically exceptional" doesn't necessarily mean they aren't. The truth lies somewhere inbetween although I think you're on a reach by suggesting that it takes some sort of higher level of footballing intellect to appreciate them given that more experienced and knowledgeable men than you or I have suggested they have been dull.

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:51 pm  

Tony Pulis' breakdown of Spain's gameplan. https://twitter.com/TonyPooless/status/ ... 42/photo/1

Tony Pulis' breakdown of Spain's gameplan. https://twitter.com/TonyPooless/status/ ... 42/photo/1