Re: Gildart Signs : Sat May 19, 2018 9:43 am  

I had a bet, Jukesy, with someone on the other forum around that time who was using this same line. I said watch how he goes with better players around him. He said it wouldn't matter as he simply wasn't good enough. He conceded after the test series.

I never did get that drink.

Re: Gildart Signs : Sat May 19, 2018 10:51 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

I'm afraid that doesn't really hold up as former SOO and Australian international, not to mention south Sydney captain, Brian Fletcher was in the side along with Danny Orr (former captain himself) and Australian international Brett Dallas. The obvious candidate was Fletcher yet a 23 year old O'Loughlin was handed the position. He also wasn't stripped of the captaincy in 2010 either. Madge introduced something that many clubs, including ourselves use to this day. Are you suggesting that O'Loughlin is somehow less of a captain today because we retain a leadership group? Leeds had the same when both Sinfield and Peacock were captains. Does that lessen their role? The fact that Lockers has been made captain at every level he has played at, from juniors to full international, says your argument has little merit.

You seem to have mistaken the fact that I said I wasn't going to argue your post as some sort of admission that you're right. I said I wasn't... not I couldn't. I said that as you'd provided a reason for your beliefs, which is what I'd asked for so I thought it only fair to accept your opinion as valid. That doesn't mean to say I think you're right or that I couldn't offer a rebuttal of all the points you made. I'd be more than happy to do it now if you like?

As to the further points you raised in this post: Are you saying that being players player of the year makes you the best player at the club? Explain Powell winning the same award. He has never been, nor ever will be the best player at the club. I tip Willie Isa to win it this year. The same will apply should he win it. That award has completely unique criteria applied to it and in no way reflects the overall quality of a player. Do you believe JB was the best player at the club the two years he won it? I certainly don't. You say it's an award for the player who's had the best season. It's not. It's more often won by the player who's had HIS best season. There's a difference.

As for the last statement : Yes I do see your case and I'm glad you explained some of the reasons you believe it. It's good to get other fan's views, especially when they don't tally with your own. It's even better to have interesting and civilized debate. Thanks for that. Do I believe you're right though? No I don't. I'll ask you a simple question. Name the things you think JB is better at than Lockers aged 24? I'll give my side to kick us off.

Passing ability : Lockers by a comfortable margin.
Kicking : Lockers by a comfortable margin
Defense : Both good. I'll say a draw.
Speed : Lockers by a fair margin.
Hit ups : Draw again.
Leadership : Lockers (although I'll concede JB probably hasn't had the same opportunities to show his credentials)
Engine : Draw again.
Versatility : Lockers. Played all the positions JB plays plus both half back positions.

In fact, I'm struggling to think of a single area where JB is better... Let alone 'Far better' as you posted.

Over to you.

Evening Phuzzy,

ok where to begin, well firstly I addressed how I don't feel being made captain is a sign of the best player, but I did, and will continue to play your game. Reverting back to 2006, you mention Fletcher as a better potential candidate, is this disregarding what happened during his short-lived captaincy of a terrible Souths side? When he was stripped of his captaincy due to racial abuse of another player? Dean Winders who later when on and played for Cas if I remember rightly. Yeah great candidate for a captain. Do you really want me to highlight why Dallas and Orr were also not selected as the captain?
Do I think Madge installing a leadership group over Lockers as a captain questions Lockers as a captain when Madge stated leadership in the team is an issue? Obviously! It directly relates to him! he was the captain!

Even though I don't think being a captain (in general) is a sign to suggest who's the best player on the team, I've just entertained your point.

Initially you criticised my post for lacking facts, so I did outlining all of Bateman's achievements already. (Which are more that Lockers had won at the same age)
The you criticised my post stating I was citing team successes not individual, so I pointed out Bateman's successes as players player and how Lockers failed to achieve person awards until he was 28 in the Dream Team, then you didn't like that.

I've countered all your points, and then some. So now (even though you like facts and not just opinion) you've merely listed a bunch of 'things' Lockers does better' and provided your own opinion on them with no supporting facts!

Always remember context, and where players have been played throughout their career.

Phuzzy, you're a decent debater, but at least play by your own rules

This is my disclaimer: Lockers is a fantastic player, not just my current favourite Wigan player but someone who I rate very highly in world rugby, for me Lockers has it all, can cart the ball in like a prop making the hard yards, can pass the ball like a half and can tackle hard all day long, it'll be a sad day when he finally hangs his boots up.

I will be looking to see your thoughts on the game today. I've enjoyed our back and forth.

Re: Gildart Signs : Sun May 20, 2018 2:36 am  

Last Son of Wigan wrote:

Evening Phuzzy,

ok where to begin, well firstly I addressed how I don't feel being made captain is a sign of the best player, but I did, and will continue to play your game. Reverting back to 2006, you mention Fletcher as a better potential candidate, is this disregarding what happened during his short-lived captaincy of a terrible Souths side? When he was stripped of his captaincy due to racial abuse of another player? Dean Winders who later when on and played for Cas if I remember rightly. Yeah great candidate for a captain. Do you really want me to highlight why Dallas and Orr were also not selected as the captain?
Do I think Madge installing a leadership group over Lockers as a captain questions Lockers as a captain when Madge stated leadership in the team is an issue? Obviously! It directly relates to him! he was the captain!

Even though I don't think being a captain (in general) is a sign to suggest who's the best player on the team, I've just entertained your point.

Initially you criticised my post for lacking facts, so I did outlining all of Bateman's achievements already. (Which are more that Lockers had won at the same age)
The you criticised my post stating I was citing team successes not individual, so I pointed out Bateman's successes as players player and how Lockers failed to achieve person awards until he was 28 in the Dream Team, then you didn't like that.

I've countered all your points, and then some. So now (even though you like facts and not just opinion) you've merely listed a bunch of 'things' Lockers does better' and provided your own opinion on them with no supporting facts!

Always remember context, and where players have been played throughout their career.

Phuzzy, you're a decent debater, but at least play by your own rules

This is my disclaimer: Lockers is a fantastic player, not just my current favourite Wigan player but someone who I rate very highly in world rugby, for me Lockers has it all, can cart the ball in like a prop making the hard yards, can pass the ball like a half and can tackle hard all day long, it'll be a sad day when he finally hangs his boots up.

I will be looking to see your thoughts on the game today. I've enjoyed our back and forth.

Firstly Mcguire did not cite lack of leadership as the thinking behind the leadership team but "to avoid overstretching any individual' and as a way of instilling responsibly throughout the playing roster. Telling, then, that he made O'Loughlin sole captain again the following season with this quote:

NEWS
Home . News . Warriors Announce Captain For 2011
Warriors Announce Captain For 2011
January 28, 2011, 00:00AM
Warriors Announce Captain For 2011

Wigan Warriors confirm that Loose Forward, Sean O'Loughlin, will Captain the 2010 Champions for Super League XVI.

The decision made by Head Coach, Michael Maguire, and the Senior Players in the squad sees Wigan reverting to having one Captain for the season but with the Leadership Group remaining strongly in place behind him to help and advise where needed.

Speaking about the decision, Michael Maguire, said:

"Having sat down with the Leadership Group to discuss the matter together, we decided to have a single Captain in Sean for this coming Season. The Leadership Group worked really well last season to help me effect the changes in performance throughout the Squad that were needed in our first year together and, further, gave a number of Senior Players the experience of leading the Team on match-day.

"However, the Wigan Squad now know that it is the responsibility of all the Players in a game to take charge and, whilst we will continue to use the Leadership Group in training, Lockers is seen clearly to lead from the front and was the unanimous choice to be made Wigan Captain for the coming Season 2011"
Doesn't really tie in with your spin on it now, does it?

However I don't really want to dwell on this too much. I was using the fact of his captaincy as a marker of his quality and nothing more. Whilst I agree the captaincy doesn't necessarily go to the best player (although it often does) it does always go to a highly rated player. Therefore as a means of dispelling the 'O'Loughlin wasn't a good player in his early days and only become a good player later in his career' it's a valid point. He was made Wigan captain at 23; the youngest captain in Superleague. Are you saying that counts for nothing?

It's also not true that I 'didn't like' you listing player's player (I'm not really sure why you word things in such a way to be honest but hey ho..) I was merely countering your fact by putting it in context, much as you sought to do with my captaincy point. How is it acceptable when you do it but implied as underhand or similar when I do it? You say argue by my own rules, yet don't follow your own advice! I've countered your player's player as you did my captaincy. Sounds fair to me.

i actually said upfront that the list of things was opinion and invited you to give yours. I wasn't, in this case, asking you to back it up but was just interested to see where we agreed/disagreed. There's no point arguing a case if we both agree on something! I'd still be interested to hear your viewpoint but it's up to you if you'd rather not say.

We clearly agree on your disclaimer so no need to add to that!

Today's game was magnificent, as was JB. As I've already said, I think he's a terrific player and no comparison to Lockers would change that view.

Not sure what you were referring to when you said "Always remember context, and where players have been played throughout their career". An explanation would be appreciated... As would these facts and figures I manipulated from previously. I still don't know what that was referring to either.

Keep 'em coming!

Re: Gildart Signs : Sun May 20, 2018 11:48 am  

Phuzzy wrote:

Firstly Mcguire did not cite lack of leadership as the thinking behind the leadership team but "to avoid overstretching any individual' and as a way of instilling responsibly throughout the playing roster. Telling, then, that he made O'Loughlin sole captain again the following season with this quote:

NEWS
Home . News . Warriors Announce Captain For 2011
Warriors Announce Captain For 2011
January 28, 2011, 00:00AM
Warriors Announce Captain For 2011

Wigan Warriors confirm that Loose Forward, Sean O'Loughlin, will Captain the 2010 Champions for Super League XVI.

The decision made by Head Coach, Michael Maguire, and the Senior Players in the squad sees Wigan reverting to having one Captain for the season but with the Leadership Group remaining strongly in place behind him to help and advise where needed.

Speaking about the decision, Michael Maguire, said:

"Having sat down with the Leadership Group to discuss the matter together, we decided to have a single Captain in Sean for this coming Season. The Leadership Group worked really well last season to help me effect the changes in performance throughout the Squad that were needed in our first year together and, further, gave a number of Senior Players the experience of leading the Team on match-day.

"However, the Wigan Squad now know that it is the responsibility of all the Players in a game to take charge and, whilst we will continue to use the Leadership Group in training, Lockers is seen clearly to lead from the front and was the unanimous choice to be made Wigan Captain for the coming Season 2011"
Doesn't really tie in with your spin on it now, does it?

However I don't really want to dwell on this too much. I was using the fact of his captaincy as a marker of his quality and nothing more. Whilst I agree the captaincy doesn't necessarily go to the best player (although it often does) it does always go to a highly rated player. Therefore as a means of dispelling the 'O'Loughlin wasn't a good player in his early days and only become a good player later in his career' it's a valid point. He was made Wigan captain at 23; the youngest captain in Superleague. Are you saying that counts for nothing?

It's also not true that I 'didn't like' you listing player's player (I'm not really sure why you word things in such a way to be honest but hey ho..) I was merely countering your fact by putting it in context, much as you sought to do with my captaincy point. How is it acceptable when you do it but implied as underhand or similar when I do it? You say argue by my own rules, yet don't follow your own advice! I've countered your player's player as you did my captaincy. Sounds fair to me.

i actually said upfront that the list of things was opinion and invited you to give yours. I wasn't, in this case, asking you to back it up but was just interested to see where we agreed/disagreed. There's no point arguing a case if we both agree on something! I'd still be interested to hear your viewpoint but it's up to you if you'd rather not say.

We clearly agree on your disclaimer so no need to add to that!

Today's game was magnificent, as was JB. As I've already said, I think he's a terrific player and no comparison to Lockers would change that view.

Not sure what you were referring to when you said "Always remember context, and where players have been played throughout their career". An explanation would be appreciated... As would these facts and figures I manipulated from previously. I still don't know what that was referring to either.

Keep 'em coming!

Its turning into a who is the tallest dwarf contest now

Re: Gildart Signs : Sun May 20, 2018 1:03 pm  

stpatricks wrote:

Its turning into a who is the tallest dwarf contest now

In what sense? Or was that just a platitude?

Re: Gildart Signs : Sun May 20, 2018 1:09 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

In what sense? Or was that just a platitude?

trying to apply logic to what are personal opinions, i do agree by the way that O'loughlin was a better player in his early 20s than Bateman

Re: Gildart Signs : Sun May 20, 2018 1:23 pm  

stpatricks wrote:

trying to apply logic to what are personal opinions, i do agree by the way that O'loughlin was a better player in his early 20s than Bateman

Ah right! Fair comment then. I guess a 'who is best' argument can never be proven absolutely as it depends on what best means to you. I do think you can give supporting facts to support your view though.

That said, I did PM LSOW earlier to say I think the discussion has run it's course so I'll happily leave it there.

Re: Gildart Signs : Sun May 20, 2018 2:37 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

I had a bet, Jukesy, with someone on the other forum around that time who was using this same line. I said watch how he goes with better players around him. He said it wouldn't matter as he simply wasn't good enough. He conceded after the test series.

I never did get that drink.

Wasn't me was it? memory isn't what it used to be

Re: Gildart Signs : Mon May 21, 2018 12:06 am  

The Whiffy Kipper wrote:

Wasn't me was it? memory isn't what it used to be

No mate. Wigan Watcher, if you remember him?

Re: Gildart Signs : Mon May 21, 2018 7:37 am  

Phuzzy wrote:

No mate. Wigan Watcher, if you remember him?

Thank god for that lol, He just stopped posting all of a sudden, very strange, he was a character