WWW.RLFANS.COM • View topic - ¬£600K loss last year!
Re: £600K loss last year!
Post Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:36 pm
Posted by Grimmy on Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:36 pm
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nikos wrote:
The whole sponsorship of our shirts has been a mystery to me, we seem to have unheard of or parochial companies whereas some other SL clubs have managed to attract national household brands.

We should be casting the net to catch a Vodafone (tie up to NZ warriors?), a Samsung (PL and SL champions link), Emirates (deep pockets) etc. etc.

Are we the most famous club in the world or not? :wink:


selling land and assets is not a viable long term model

It depends how much they are offering though. I'd rather have a more small local sponsor than a big global name if they are willing to pay more. Realistically I suspect improving attendances and (probably more importantly) Sky viewing figures would need to happen to improve our attractiveness to sponsors.
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Re: £600K loss last year!
Post Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:51 pm
Posted by Itchy Arsenal on Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:51 pm
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ChrisA wrote:
The simple fact is that we are not very pretty to watch. You can't rely on fan loyalty to keep bums on seats, you have to entertain people in order for them to keep coming back. It's ok saying ancient and loyal and all that, that's fine for the older more established fans that live and breathe the game. I'm talking about new people to the sport, to the Wigan club and brand, unless they feel entertained they aren't going to keep coming back.

To a lot it's sport, it's something to do on weekend that you enjoy, it is something to look forward to and a reason to spend your hard earned. Even some of the most hardened fans at the are finding it tedious to watch games, imagine what the new-comers must think?

If Im honest the fact that average crowds have declined by a couple thousand when we have been relatively successful says it all - if we had won not pots the decrease would have been significantly higher.
The biggest worry for IL will be new applications for season tickets i.e. first time buyers. The stat on that will be horrendous.
Personally I like IL and I would be amazed if there are not significant changes next year in the squad and coaching.
Re: £600K loss last year!
Post Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:59 pm
Posted by Wigan6/Leeds1 Andy on Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:59 pm
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DaveO wrote:
I doubt it. When was the last time you heard of a company CEO bailing out a loss making organisation out of their personal wealth? He might have done this but it's just as likely the club has borrowed money (as all business do) to finance their operations.


He does do this.

The club has a bank overdraft with Barclays which stood at £378k at the end of the financial year - Lenagan personally guarantees this with the bank on behalf of the club.

At the end of 2016 the club owed Lenagan £5.9m (up from £4.8m in 2015) through the loans provided by his investment company (which is the club's parent company).

Without Lenagan the club would be up poop creek.
Re: £600K loss last year!
Post Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:14 pm
Posted by Wigan6/Leeds1 Andy on Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:14 pm
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[quote="Bigredwarrior"Latics demise is without doubt the cause of the rental cost increase.[/quote]

The increase in rental cost is in relation to increased match revenues (i.e. higher ticket prices etc). The lease we have bases rental costs on match revenues.
Re: £600K loss last year!
Post Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:20 pm
Posted by DaveO on Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:20 pm
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Wigan6/Leeds1 Andy wrote:
He does do this.

The club has a bank overdraft with Barclays which stood at £378k at the end of the financial year - Lenagan personally guarantees this with the bank on behalf of the club.

At the end of 2016 the club owed Lenagan £5.9m (up from £4.8m in 2015) through the loans provided by his investment company (which is the club's parent company).

Without Lenagan the club would be up poop creek.


Like I said the club has loans. It's Barclays who actually gave the money in the form of an overdraft to the club, not IL. How do you know he personally guarantees these loans? He'd be a bit mad to personally guarantee any loans. The clubs has assets (Orrell) a bank would have no trouble in securing such an overdraft on. Even if he does personally guarantee the overdraft it's still Barclay's who have lent the money to the club.

As to the investment company, if the clubs owes his investment company £5.9m that is who it owes the money to. I don't doubt he had to come up with a wedge of cash to buy the club in the first place which he will presumably have funded the investment company with and this is where I assume most of the £5.9m debt comes from. And if the club owes the money used to buy it that means he has not gifted the club the cash he used to buy it in the first place. Not that I expect him to necessarily but he has still loaded the debt onto the club which he might expect to recover if he ever sold it. He may never expect it back but it is currently a debt not a gift. If that £5.9m doesn't come mainly from him buying it in the first place then that is an average of £590K a year he has chucked at the club. I can't see how he can have been doing that or the club would have recorded bigger losses in past seasons.
Last league derby at Central Park 5/9/1999: Wigan 28 St. Helens 20
Last league derby at Knowsley Road 2/4/2010: St. Helens 10 Wigan 18
Re: £600K loss last year!
Post Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:30 pm
Posted by Wigan6/Leeds1 Andy on Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:30 pm
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I really don't know where to start with this - you've clearly not looked at the accounts. If you did you wouldn't have written this (or maybe you would?).

DaveO wrote:
Like I said the club has loans. It's Barclays who actually gave the money in the form of an overdraft to the club, not IL.


The club overdraft went DOWN last year - Operating loss for the year was over £600k.

DaveO wrote:
How do you know he personally guarantees these loans? He'd be a bit mad to personally guarantee any loans.


Because it says this in the accounts:
"Mr I F Lenagan, a Director of the Company, has provided personal guarantees to the Bank on behalf of the Company"

DaveO wrote:
The clubs has assets (Orrell) a bank would have no trouble in securing such an overdraft on. Even if he does personally guarantee the overdraft it's still Barclay's who have lent the money to the club.


As I've already said the bank overdraft reduced last year (from £392k to £378k) but the operating loss was over £600k. Who do you actually think is funding the loss?

DaveO wrote:
As to the investment company, if the clubs owes his investment company £5.9m that is who it owes the money to. I don't doubt he had to come up with a wedge of cash to buy the club in the first place which he will presumably have funded the investment company with and this is where I assume most of the £5.9m debt comes from. And if the club owes the money used to buy it that means he has not gifted the club the cash he used to buy it in the first place. Not that I expect him to necessarily but he has still loaded the debt onto the club which he might expect to recover if he ever sold it. He may never expect it back but it is currently a debt not a gift. If that £5.9m doesn't come mainly from him buying it in the first place then that is an average of £590K a year he has chucked at the club. I can't see how he can have been doing that or the club would have recorded bigger losses in past seasons.


The investment company is Lenagan if you'd bother to read the accounts. The amount owed went up by over a £1m last year alone and now stands at £5.9m. He bought the club for £2m. Without the Lenagan family the club would be in financial trouble.
Re: £600K loss last year!
Post Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:53 pm
Posted by DaveO on Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:53 pm
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Wigan6/Leeds1 Andy wrote:
I really don't know where to start with this - you've clearly not looked at the accounts. If you did you wouldn't have written this (or maybe you would?).

The club overdraft went DOWN last year - Operating loss for the year was over £600k.

Because it says this in the accounts:
"Mr I F Lenagan, a Director of the Company, has provided personal guarantees to the Bank on behalf of the Company"

As I've already said the bank overdraft reduced last year (from £392k to £378k) but the operating loss was over £600k. Who do you actually think is funding the loss?

The investment company is Lenagan if you'd bother to read the accounts. The amount owed went up by over a £1m last year alone and now stands at £5.9m. He bought the club for £2m. Without the Lenagan family the club would be in financial trouble.


No I have not looked at the accounts but I do understand the difference between an individual and a company and the fact that IL vias his investment company has loaded the money spent onto the club as a debt so it's a not a gift. Given Orrell is valued at £3.6m if it all went belly up tomorrow he's also not facing a £5.9nm loss either. If he bought it for £2m and the club owes £5.9m where did the £3.9m come from? He's been in charge 10 years. If this sort of loss and level of debt had been reported under the previous regime they would not be being accorded the accolade as a saviour. People would be slagging the situation off because the club was being run at a loss requiring handouts.
Last league derby at Central Park 5/9/1999: Wigan 28 St. Helens 20
Last league derby at Knowsley Road 2/4/2010: St. Helens 10 Wigan 18
Re: £600K loss last year!
Post Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:01 pm
Posted by NickyKiss on Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:01 pm
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It makes a few posts about Lenagan using the club for personal gain in the thread about the Aussie game seem even more crazy this news. I remember one which went along the lines of-

Income
Gate Recepits £2.5m
Sky Money-£2m

Outgoings
Wages-£1.8m
Stadium Rent-£300k

They indicated that Lenagan must be taking the rest!

Brilliant.
Re: £600K loss last year!
Post Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:07 pm
Posted by Wigan6/Leeds1 Andy on Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:07 pm
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DaveO wrote:
No I have not looked at the accounts but I do understand the difference between an individual and a company and the fact that IL vias his investment company has loaded the money spent onto the club as a debt so it's a not a gift. Given Orrell is valued at £3.6m if it all went belly up tomorrow he's also not facing a £5.9nm loss either. If he bought it for £2m and the club owes £5.9m where did the £3.9m come from? He's been in charge 10 years. If this sort of loss and level of debt had been reported under the previous regime they would not be being accorded the accolade as a saviour. People would be slagging the situation off because the club was being run at a loss requiring handouts.


Seriously Dave, read the accounts for the club and Lenagan Investments then come back and tell me why Lenagan isn't propping up the club. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about because you clearly don't know the figures, yet seem incapable of admitting it.
Re: £600K loss last year!
Post Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:09 pm
Posted by Wigan6/Leeds1 Andy on Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:09 pm
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NickyKiss wrote:
It makes a few posts about Lenagan using the club for personal gain in the thread about the Aussie game seem even more crazy this news. I remember one which went along the lines of-

Income
Gate Recepits £2.5m
Sky Money-£2m

Outgoings
Wages-£1.8m
Stadium Rent-£300k

They indicated that Lenagan must be taking the rest!

Brilliant.


Indeed - a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. No knowledge is the internet.
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