Re: Time for change. : Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:43 am  

Cherry_Warrior wrote:

That was a pi$$ poor performance. Pitiful even. Give Wane to see out this circus until the end of the season and if we win nothing it's almost certainly time to go. We all know Wane has his favourites and his bias and friendship with some of the players and families are crucifying this club, guaranteed games whether they are woeful or not. We need wholesale changes.

Bowen and Patrick will be gone thankfully but joining them should be, Sarginson, Smith, Mossop, Tautai and Crosby needs a kick up the booty or get rid too.

We have swapped a decent centre (who is OOC at the end of the season) and loaned him out to Huddersfield and got a complete waste of salary in return. Jack Hughes will sign permanently for Hudds im sure. 5 times the centre Sarginson is. What a complete waste.

I would draft in Corey Patterson from Salford, The man is a flying machine and strong as an ox, brings so much more to the table than Mossop, Tautai and Crosby. We need an experienced NRL prop and we need to bring back the meter maker Burke from Hull KR. Why do we keep experimenting with loose forwards that clearly won't cut it when we have Burke starting at 13 at KR and doing well.

Smith just offers nothing I am afraid. He isn't a game breaker, his kicking is woeful (although he made a couple of rare ones last night) and his leadership and handling leaves a lot to be desired. We need an experienced No. 7 with vision and a game brain alongside Hampshire at No. 6. Powell needs to be back up half back and Williams needs to revert to interchanging No. 9 with MM.

So that leaves the centre, Is Ratchford the answer I don't know, maybe. Personally I would grovel to Jack Hughes, apologise that he was farmed out and give the lad a new contract. Get Thornley fit in the off season so he can challenge for both centre positions leaving Tierney to cover FB and the wings.

Bateman and J. Tomkins to play second row and make Farrell work and train hard for a place in the squad because for 2 seasons his lack of form and poor discipline certainly does not warrant a claim in the 13.

Christ we've got problems but Hughes being five time the player Sarginson is certainly isn't one! He's an average second row at best.

I actually thought Sarge was pretty good last night. It's not the three quarters fault they're doing the props work on top of their own.

Re: Time for change. : Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:47 am  

DaveO wrote:

I don't think he is and that is despite Hughes really being a back row forward.

Hughes knows what centre play is about and Sarge doesn't. I don't think he has a clue.

Yes he is a super-fit athlete but he has no RL brain. Defensively he's poor as well.

Why he's not been dropped given some of his performances can only be because we have no one else or there is something seriously wrong. Charnley is still carrying the can for Sarge mistakes as it is IMO.

One of the last games Hughes played for us was at centre when we had some injuries and we looked so much better with him there. He isn't the solution long term but he'd be a better option right now than Sarge.

Hughes knows what centre play is about but Sarge doesn't?!!

I'm as annoyed as the next man but I seem to have landed on another planet! Hughes has showed zero ability when it comes to traditional centre player and whilst Sarge has rough edges there's a classy wingers centre in there somewhere.

Re: Time for change. : Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:49 am  

Aboveusonlypie wrote:

Less than twelve months ago Sarge played for England against both Australia and New Zealand. If you had watched those games you would have seen that he looked comfortably at home in that environment, in fact he outperformed Watkins over the two games.

So that would suggest that at least, Sarge has what it takes to become a top class player. The problem is that he is asked to do so much more than any other centre in the competition. If Percival at Saints (the best young centre around) was asked to do the second play hit ups that Sarge is being asked to do, he wouldn't cope either.

If Sarge is making defensive errors, it's not because he can't defend, it's because he is being asked to do too much. Just compare his carries with those of any of our props. That is where the problem lies.

We don't have one prop in the club worthy of the name. Flower is a pale shadow of his former self, Crosby and Mossop do nothing, Tautai is a joke. Only Tony Clubb looks capable, and he is hardly in the same league as about a dozen I could name starting with Chris Hill and ending with Andy Lynch.

End of discussion really.

Summed up to perfection.

Re: Time for change. : Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:55 am  

Last Son of Wigan wrote:

I like your strong attitude but I think not as many changes are needed. If we look at next season for example:

Tomkins (a game breaker, will add so much to creating attack and scoring tries)
Charnley (will be a different more confident player minus Wane plus Tomkins
Sarg (Young live wire of a player who has pace and movement to scare the opposition, had some issues with defence which have improved)
Gelling (when fit is a dangerous centre)
Manfredi (so much potential)
----------------------------------------
I think we need an experienced quality half, I'd go for Brough to partner either Williams, Powell, Smith or Rocky
---------------------------------------
Clubb, Flower and Crosby plus a new prop signing.
---------------------------------------
MM plus a genuine 9 who can scoot to keep up the intensity when MM is interchanged, lets take the interchange seriously and not see it as a way of getting whoever game time.
--------------------------------------
Backrow: Tomkins, Lockers and Bateman. I'm growing tired of Faz's peculate ways, for me he's on the bench coming off as a replacement not a starter. I'd give Tautai a run at SR.
-----------------

All really good points and I agree with them all apart from Brough.

I'd personally like to see Sam move back to 6 and for us to look for another 1. I really want to see what Sam can do in the halves. I want him in there directing play and causing the kind of genuine threat at 6 we haven't seen since Trent.

After that good solid FB's aren't that hard to come by in the NRL. If Wakey go down we could even look at Locke. Sarge has also shown some promise there in the past.

Love your idea about TT in the 2nd row. Whilst he's undersized for a prop he's a good size for the backrow. Moving him there and bringing in another prop just makes sense as it means one less addition/disruption.

Like you said we don't need wholesale changes. The one big change is getting rid of Wane.

Re: Time for change. : Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:56 am  

cadoo wrote:

We need a backup hooker to Mcilorum for next season. Not convinced Powell or Logan Tomkins have a great impact when they come on. They give everything granted, but they aren't good enough. Brad Dwyer made a huge difference for Warrington when he came on. In the short term I'm not sure what we can do. We will have to go with Powell.

I agree with a lot of your post, but I disagree here. MMc should be doing 80 minutes. Who is Saints back up to Roby? Who is Leeds to Aiton? how often do you see Cameron Smith taken off? IMO back up hookers are not required. Lockers or Bateman could spell MMc if he needs a short 10 minute break but no longer - not worth having a hooker on the bench.

Re: Time for change. : Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:58 am  

Tautai can't play anywhere whilst he's making the errors that he is.

It was a shame last night to see him make so many because unlike his more experienced colleagues in the prop department at least he runs on to a ball with some purpose.

Re: Time for change. : Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:04 pm  

Aboveusonlypie wrote:

I agree with a lot of your post, but I disagree here. MMc should be doing 80 minutes. Who is Saints back up to Roby? Who is Leeds to Aiton? how often do you see Cameron Smith taken off? IMO back up hookers are not required. Lockers or Bateman could spell MMc if he needs a short 10 minute break but no longer - not worth having a hooker on the bench.

Spot on. He should be playing 80 mins.

It's so obvious to see that when MM leaves the field we go to pot. The most simple and easiest way to stop that happening would be to stop taking him off.

Re: Time for change. : Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:14 pm  

We played well the last time MM played as the only 9 in the squad.

We've not bothered since.

Re: Time for change. : Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:25 pm  

Last Son of Wigan wrote:

I understand your point but not changing the personnel when other players might make a difference isn't forward thinking. Has Smith been so good he's untouchable? No, not in my eyes, is Williams untouchable? No. We honestly don't know how Rocky will play in the halves, and that's the whole point, he needs a run of games in the first team in the halves to see what he offers, one game isn't enough for him to prove his worth, Gelling suffered no end from being played in the odd game in the wrong position when given a run of games in the right position he started to shine, as Hampshire might, or Powell for that.

Evidence has shown over the years changing people yet keeping the system the same does have an effect on the team, did Wigan improve when Tomkins replaced Smith? Yes massively. Individuals can easily improve a team. Would we improve if we had the same system yet had JT in the halves or Inglis at fullback? I'd bet my mortgage we would.

FWIW I think it's always difficult playing behind a beaten pack, it's rushed and dangerous at times to put set plays on spinning the ball out in our own half, and it's much harder to deliver attacking kicks when in your own half/20-30. I think the pack is more of an issue, namely the props. But guidance and control from a top 6/7 would go along way.

I am not saying Smith is untouchable but it would seem he is by the way Wane doesnt change him and some fans are very quick to point the finger at Williams.

I would like Smith be moved on and lets go with two out of Hampshire / Williams / Powell and place these young lads in the correct positions.

Williams is not a number 9
Hampshire is not a number 1
Powell is not a number 9

Re: Time for change. : Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:27 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

Tautai can't play anywhere whilst he's making the errors that he is.

It was a shame last night to see him make so many because unlike his more experienced colleagues in the prop department at least he runs on to a ball with some purpose.

For me its all down to confidence in the position he's been asked to play in. He must know he's struggling and he's trying to hard.

It's a similar situation across the side:

Joel- I've seen a couple of idiots suggest getting rid of him due to his form. He's been playing centre for 8 weeks FFS. He's never a centre in a million years but, due to Wane he's had to play there. Wane must have know Gildhart wasn't ready so why have him as backup? Planning like that has seen one of the leagues best 2nd rows go to pot.

Rocky - I said earlier in the week he's been set up for a fall by Wane. He's been forced into the FB role and it's not worked out. Where's his run at 6? Why isn't the same kind of blind loyalty shown to Smith and Williams shown to him? You'd at least want to give a gut with his potential a fair shot right?

Williams - had game time and had the backing but is struggling to play an unnatural style. He's not Blake Green but that's the role he's been forced into. He's a better version of Smith imo and should have taken his place in the side.

Powell - again loads of unwarranted stick. One week he's at 6, next he's at 9 then he's dropped for 3/4 weeks. All the while Williams continues to struggle but keeps getting backed to the hilt.

All this rests on the shoulders of Wane. He's destroyed the ethos built by Madge.