Re: Time for change. : Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:22 am  

DaveO wrote:

I don't think he is and that is despite Hughes really being a back row forward.

Hughes knows what centre play is about and Sarge doesn't. I don't think he has a clue.

Yes he is a super-fit athlete but he has no RL brain. Defensively he's poor as well.

Why he's not been dropped given some of his performances can only be because we have no one else or there is something seriously wrong. Charnley is still carrying the can for Sarge mistakes as it is IMO.

One of the last games Hughes played for us was at centre when we had some injuries and we looked so much better with him there. He isn't the solution long term but he'd be a better option right now than Sarge.

Less than twelve months ago Sarge played for England against both Australia and New Zealand. If you had watched those games you would have seen that he looked comfortably at home in that environment, in fact he outperformed Watkins over the two games.

So that would suggest that at least, Sarge has what it takes to become a top class player. The problem is that he is asked to do so much more than any other centre in the competition. If Percival at Saints (the best young centre around) was asked to do the second play hit ups that Sarge is being asked to do, he wouldn't cope either.

If Sarge is making defensive errors, it's not because he can't defend, it's because he is being asked to do too much. Just compare his carries with those of any of our props. That is where the problem lies.

We don't have one prop in the club worthy of the name. Flower is a pale shadow of his former self, Crosby and Mossop do nothing, Tautai is a joke. Only Tony Clubb looks capable, and he is hardly in the same league as about a dozen I could name starting with Chris Hill and ending with Andy Lynch.

Re: Time for change. : Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:30 am  

Grimmy wrote:

I'd love us to sign Danny Brough a couple of years ago when we got Smith but I'm sure if he was going to move to a big club he would have done so long before now. Regardless of that, he's 32 now so not really a forward thinking option. Hampshire and Williams are the future IMO

They could be the future, but it would develop them so much more learning off a seasoned 6/7 like Brough for a year or 2. I don't know who'd be a better match in SL for us than Brough.

Re: Time for change. : Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:31 am  

Aboveusonlypie wrote:

Less than twelve months ago Sarge played for England against both Australia and New Zealand. If you had watched those games you would have seen that he looked comfortably at home in that environment, in fact he outperformed Watkins over the two games.

So that would suggest that at least, Sarge has what it takes to become a top class player. The problem is that he is asked to do so much more than any other centre in the competition. If Percival at Saints (the best young centre around) was asked to do the second play hit ups that Sarge is being asked to do, he wouldn't cope either.

If Sarge is making defensive errors, it's not because he can't defend, it's because he is being asked to do too much. Just compare his carries with those of any of our props. That is where the problem lies.

We don't have one prop in the club worthy of the name. Flower is a pale shadow of his former self, Crosby and Mossop do nothing, Tautai is a joke. Only Tony Clubb looks capable, and he is hardly in the same league as about a dozen I could name starting with Chris Hill and ending with Andy Lynch.

That is a painfully accurate observation.

Re: Time for change. : Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:39 am  

King Johns II wrote:

Williams is a 7 but Smith is untouchable for some reason??

Changing the players round and picking Hampshire in the halves will not change anything. They need to change the attacking sets / plays because the are so readable......it is the same move from Maguire with different personnel that is it. We been doing it for a long time and if the fans can read the set play by play then so can opposition clubs. If you look at the games we have lost this season it is from when this move doesnt come off and as John Wells said before the game and Stevo during the game they either go in to desperate mode or keep with the move and get no where. So putting Hampshire in isnt going to change it.

I understand your point but not changing the personnel when other players might make a difference isn't forward thinking. Has Smith been so good he's untouchable? No, not in my eyes, is Williams untouchable? No. We honestly don't know how Rocky will play in the halves, and that's the whole point, he needs a run of games in the first team in the halves to see what he offers, one game isn't enough for him to prove his worth, Gelling suffered no end from being played in the odd game in the wrong position when given a run of games in the right position he started to shine, as Hampshire might, or Powell for that.

Evidence has shown over the years changing people yet keeping the system the same does have an effect on the team, did Wigan improve when Tomkins replaced Smith? Yes massively. Individuals can easily improve a team. Would we improve if we had the same system yet had JT in the halves or Inglis at fullback? I'd bet my mortgage we would.

FWIW I think it's always difficult playing behind a beaten pack, it's rushed and dangerous at times to put set plays on spinning the ball out in our own half, and it's much harder to deliver attacking kicks when in your own half/20-30. I think the pack is more of an issue, namely the props. But guidance and control from a top 6/7 would go along way.

Re: Time for change. : Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:41 am  

Aboveusonlypie wrote:

Less than twelve months ago Sarge played for England against both Australia and New Zealand. If you had watched those games you would have seen that he looked comfortably at home in that environment, in fact he outperformed Watkins over the two games.

So that would suggest that at least, Sarge has what it takes to become a top class player. The problem is that he is asked to do so much more than any other centre in the competition. If Percival at Saints (the best young centre around) was asked to do the second play hit ups that Sarge is being asked to do, he wouldn't cope either.

If Sarge is making defensive errors, it's not because he can't defend, it's because he is being asked to do too much. Just compare his carries with those of any of our props. That is where the problem lies.

We don't have one prop in the club worthy of the name. Flower is a pale shadow of his former self, Crosby and Mossop do nothing, Tautai is a joke. Only Tony Clubb looks capable, and he is hardly in the same league as about a dozen I could name starting with Chris Hill and ending with Andy Lynch.

Actually a decent post! I agree FWIW

Re: Time for change. : Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:58 am  

Last Son of Wigan wrote:

Actually a decent post! I agree FWIW

Thanks, appreciated. I know we don't always see eye to eye.

Re: Time for change. : Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:02 am  

Aboveusonlypie wrote:

Thanks, appreciated. I know we don't always see eye to eye.

Re: Time for change. : Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:19 am  

"The Move" still works. The only problem is (a) it's our only move and (b) we don't have the players to execute it effectively anymore (Finch/Green, Sam, Carmont, Pat, Goulding).

Smith is a good player but he thrives off having a top class halfback alongside him. I thought he kicked really well throughout last night with very little praise.

With Williams, the problem is clear as day - confidence. He is trying too hard, forcing passes and scuffing grubber kicks. Every time he has the ball he tries to 'do something'. He needs some thoughtful coaching and revert back to his natural game.

Re: Time for change. : Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:30 am  

Agree with the comments RE Sarge. The lad works his backside off every game. He takes up so many dead ball carries - throwing himself into forwards and getting smashed. He has shown his class at the highest level. Stop working him like a forward and we might see more of his class in attack and he may have a bit more energy to defend!

For next season our backline is fine. Tomkins Charnley Sarginson Gelling and Manfredi. Our backs are excellent. Williams needs to be spelled with Hampshire now. I wont get on Williams' back because he has been thrown in the deep end and is playing behind a powderpuff pack. After the last few weeks though and getting smashed and punched by Sims I'd rest him and give Hampshire a chance in his preferred position.

We need a backup hooker to Mcilorum for next season. Not convinced Powell or Logan Tomkins have a great impact when they come on. They give everything granted, but they aren't good enough. Brad Dwyer made a huge difference for Warrington when he came on. In the short term I'm not sure what we can do. We will have to go with Powell.

Our pack needs to find their backbone and they need to find it quick. We missed Clubb and Bateman. Two aggressive players. Flower has gone well since his return and Sutton has acquitted himself well for his age. Mossop, Tautai and Crosby need a rollocking and need to sort their game out quick. Patrick has just been bloody awful. For next season we need some huge experienced pack leaders. I'd have loved an Ashton Sims or a Cuthbertson in our side. In the short term there's not much we can do I fear. Clubb and Bateman come straight back into the side. Lockers too at 13 with Sutton benched with Patrick dropped. Tautai, Mossop and Crosby are in last chance saloon. Tautai to keep hold of the ball at all times - no more errors! And Crosby and Mossop to discover their rubbish again!

Re: Time for change. : Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:32 am  

No half-back at Wigan will look good at the moment - the pack is being bullied and walked all over, I lost count of how many drives the backs were taking up because the forwards (props esp) were just not performing - and at times looked downright lazy. Even when they took the ball up - nothing. The Warrington forwards were making yards for fun.

Until the pack (front row in particular) either man up or get replaced debate about half backs is pointless.