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Learn from the best : Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:06 pm  
Look at South Sydney/Sydney Roosters, how they play and structure the team, yes they have some world class stars who we don't but we could learn so much from their team structure and they play the game.

First 20 mins is the arm wrestle. We lose the arm wrestle v Leeds, only fast hands through the backs allowed use to score our opening try, before than Leeds' forward pack were driving us back meaning their 5th tackle kicks were attacking kicks not defensive clearance kicks, ours were.

How do you win the arm wrestle? Keep it simple for the first 20 only really working through structures in the oppositions 20, maybe 30. Quick PTB from the dummy half, getting the forwards to roll on making yards, ideally you want 50+ per set. Players can alternate through the drives but you expect more from your pack, ideally props. To share the work load, have 3 props on the pitch (8,10,13) all players who can make the hard yards. I'd also expect the SR and 9 and backs to add to the drives. Dummy half runs are crucial as they keep the opposition guessing, will the 9 scoot or pass, a scoot can easily pick up 10-15 with quick PTB catching the markers not square.

I don't see why props are being substituted after 20 if they haven't grafted and put in the hard yards. The 13 is crucial, can often be expected to play like a prop but take on longer mins.

The second part of winning the arm wrestle is the kick chase. We need halves who can pick the opposition into their own half with a fast chase to pin the opposition into their own half, forcing their kick to be a defensive clearance.

Third part is no penalties, they gift field position, I don't mind aggressive play, but don't risk giving way a pen, it can throw away the hard work instantly.

Then when in key territory:

FB (fast, a footballer, I want the FB not just linking out wide but on occasion shadowing the forwards when they take it up, looking for the offload, the responsibility to be shared with a fast half)
Wingers fast, good size, can pose a threat at catching the high ball on cross field kicks, and good for covering back, can also help out with the workload on the drives, like Tupou or SKD.
Centres with fast feet and quick hands. split the team into 3 units, middle and two sides when the SR moves the ball to either centre we need centres who can attack with real speed and quick hands on the edges, they need to link up with the fb and wingers, as Dylan Walker does at Souths and Jennings at Roosters, not the biggest of men, but very quick and illusive.
half backs who bark out the orders, can move the pack around the pitch and very importantly can kick. Kicking is so important in the modern game, when Reynolds left the field v Roosters his kicking was badly missed, as through kicking you can control where the game is played.
Props/13 who are making 10+ per drive and tacking and who has an offload to mount second phase play.
SR, such an underrated position they are the pivot on the edges of the middle unit who pivot out to the backs. Souths now have two ball players who play in the SR (Sutton and Stewart) who don't just run the ball down a channel, but can move the ball around linking well with the halves and more importantly the centres, fb and wingers.


So how can this be applied to Wigan?

Bowen? Not quick enough, not illusive, don't scare defenders when he attacks out wide and doesn't chase up the middle as a support player (think Radz or Billy)

I'd try Manfredi there. Odd shout, but he has the size, quick feet and illusiveness to pose a genuine threat when attacking out wide, you want your FB to inject pace into the team when they hit the line. Second to this I'd go with Rocky, although Rocky seems to have issues under the high ball and in defence, of which I haven't seen from Manfredi.

Our wingers are good, on their day; excellent. Both Charnley and Burgess are quick, good size. If you put them in the correct field position they will score.
Our centres are good, Sarg especially, quick feet, can offload and pose a genuine threat when breaking forward in attack. If the right centre became available I'd look at them over Gelling, I want someone quick, lacking this against popular opinion I thought Joel was doing very well in the centres.

Halves and 9. Major issue. McM poses minimum threat from dummy half, rarely scoots, has little pace, doesn't keep the opposition guessing and doesn't put the other team under pressure with quick PTB to a fast moving pace. I seriously think this is one of the major areas of concern as we are seriously lacking when it comes to 9s. I'm sick of people talking about how he 'fit our style of play' our play would be massively improved with a scoot, quick PTB and even a solid kicking game from 9. Would Roby or Clark have won MOS with out scooting? I don't think so. McM has many qualities, but a 9 he is not.
No leadership or spark in the halves, kicking game can be poor wasting the hard work the props have provided to set the field position not giving players the chance to score with attacking kicks.

Props/13, its simple, make your 10+, then look for an offload, the 6 or 1 should be waiting to take the offload developing second phase play. Props should be working the hardest to warrant an interchange in attack and defence.

SR ball players as well as making the hard yards. Put the centres/FB into space for them to run onto it.

Manfredi
Charnley Tomkins Sarg Burgess
Powell Smith
Mossop Williams Flower
Lockers Bateman
Clubb


Ball playing SR, 3 props, fast backs, halves with a kicking game who can lead around the park.
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Re: Learn from the best : Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:27 pm  
We still would need to stop making stupid errors, giving soft pens and dropping the ball though regardless of the above.
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Re: Learn from the best : Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:33 pm  
Finally a Wigan fan who can see McIlorum's limited input.
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Re: Learn from the best : Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:52 pm  
The Yellow Giraffe wrote:
Finally a Wigan fan who can see McIlorum's limited input.


Cue scooter hooker comment, because actually picking the ball up sometimes and looking dangerous with it is a negative thing.
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Re: Learn from the best : Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:22 pm  
FearTheVee wrote:
Cue scooter hooker comment, because actually picking the ball up sometimes and looking dangerous with it is a negative thing.


Not amongst all Wigan fans - I have no problem with scooting from 9 as long as it is not the sole play for a no 9 a la Higham. I for one think McIlorum for some reason has gone backwards in the last season or so, two or three years ago he was a far more effective attacking option than now, Logan Tomkins certainly sharpened things up when he came on against Leeds.

Given the lack of falir/creativity from the Wigan halves at present the team needs someone else - either 1, 9 or 13 to inject some option/variety into the play and Lockers is a massive loss for us at present as neither Bowen or McIlorum seem to be offering any real threat. Someone to get the opposition defense on the back foot is a real miss at present.
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Re: Learn from the best : Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:34 pm  
LSoW>

All fair comment. I was never fussed about Campese, though, mostly cos he seems a bit of a crock; I'd be interested to know how many NRL matches he's played in the last two or three years, he always seemed to be injured to me. That's not to say that an experienced Aussie/Kiwi 6 wouldn't be useful to us of course.

We bought an experienced f-b in Bowen, but I agree he just hasn't offered enough. especially in the Slater-esque support running and chiming into the line you're talking about.

You're dead right that the props need to offer a hell of a lot more in terms of hard yards.
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Re: Learn from the best : Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:42 pm  
A fully fit MM is one of the best hookers in Superleague. The problem is he has not been fully fit this season (and for parts of last season) and can thus seem slow and ponderous at the ptb and much less effective in defence. His failure to put in a consistent performance along with that of most of the props is one of the more obvious reasons why Wigan have struggled this year.
In the last few matches of the last regular season (wins against Warrington and Leeds) then the play-offs against Huddersfield and Warrington he was fully fit and firing on all cylinders. In fact, I would even go as far to say that if he hadn't suffered a fractured eye socket in the semi-final against Warrington, Wigan would have won the GF - even with only 12 men! I doubt that Roby would have been as dominant as he was and put in a MoM performance.
I know this is "old ground" for you Saints fans as there has already been a similar discussion on other topics where most of you think Saints would still have won even if Wigan hadn't played with 12 men for 78 minutes (or if LH had also been dismissed and both teams had played with 12 men). Let's just agree to disagree on that one!
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Re: Learn from the best : Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:03 pm  
moto748 wrote:
LSoW>

All fair comment. I was never fussed about Campese, though, mostly cos he seems a bit of a crock; I'd be interested to know how many NRL matches he's played in the last two or three years, he always seemed to be injured to me. That's not to say that an experienced Aussie/Kiwi 6 wouldn't be useful to us of course.

We bought an experienced f-b in Bowen, but I agree he just hasn't offered enough. especially in the Slater-esque support running and chiming into the line you're talking about.

You're dead right that the props need to offer a hell of a lot more in terms of hard yards.



Campo a few years back actually played origin for NSW, a very controlled player, intelligent who knows how to move a team around the park. Lacking in speed and movement, would ideally be best suited to partner a more dynamic half.

I don't know what he wanted in terms of wage to play over here in SL, possibly more than we were willing to pay.
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Re: Learn from the best : Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:10 pm  
I also think we're questionably dependant on Lockers, he's a fantastic player in both offence and defensive, one of the best all-round games of anyone in SL, but he's potentially coming to a point in his career when we can't depend on him, The injuries seem to be mounting up, and IMO we don't have anyone who can play his role as well as he does, to be honest not even close. That's not meaning to be disrespectful to others but high praise to Sean.
He can run it in like a prop, pace of a SR and hands of a 6/7. With this tackles as hard as anyone-all game. He's NRL standard all day long, a player we've been lucky to have.

I think to add more force to the pack, use the 13 shirt as a 3rd prop. Such a positional shift would also add more weight in defence.

PS I rate McM, just feel a positional switch could benefit the team and maximise his talents.
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Re: Learn from the best : Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:31 pm  
We did learn from the best - Maguire!
Trouble is we seemed to have forgotten what we learned from him.
Souths style is a replica of Wigan's under Mag but with better calibre players.
A few weeks ago the SMH had an article where they were all complaining about four man tackles, the ball carriers being held up off the floor whilst being allowed to move slightly forward and turned so he landed on his back. Exactly how McG had us tackling at Wigan. It was this terrible slowing down of the ptb and preventing scooting.
How utterly terrible, how dare they do it!
He worked on the basis that the ref can only call held when either the ball carrying arm hits the floor, or, the ball carrier's movement is halted. McGuire had all of that under control. We were controlling both the opposing player and to a large extent the referee and his ability under the rules to call held.
We've gone from that to the two man tackle shambles at Leeds where Cuthbertson could offload at will, simply because we allowed him to.
Leeds two starting props made 37 carries during the game, Wigan's two 7. What's that all about?
We did learn from the best, we need to re-learn and quickly too!
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