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Re: Training with Bath RU : Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:04 am  
Itchy Arsenal wrote:
Aye the following players were total shoite
Jim Sullivan
Billy Boston
Lewis Jones
Inga
Cliff Watson
The Von
Jon Davies
Martin Offiah
David Watkins
John Bevan
Frano Botica

Admittedly I could name as many gobshoites but then I could do the same about RL originating players.
Some of the above were very wild expensive punts but........
My view is keep your options open.
Personally I would love right now another Steve Hampson or a Ben Flower but then we haven't got Saint Longy of Betfred or Saint KC of Special Cornflakes coaching us so I would wouldn't I?


Not many props there, are there?

We have 3 props in the Wigan u16s who are already over 105 kg according to the club website. They will be even bigger when they have finished growing under our conditioning regime however they may not have the skill set or mentality to make a first grade player. Kibula is a beast and looks to have the size and skills (and pace) but I will have to look at Freer and Prescott a bit more. Size isn't everything! Look at Karl Pryce!

Until these lads come through in what could be 5 years time we will have to buy in big props.
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Re: Training with Bath RU : Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:58 am  
dany1979 wrote:
Mark Bitcon is one of the best in the business, if this was not of benefit to Wigan then Im sure he would say so internally, lets not forget that he spent a good deal of time in Union as well as the NFL so its not surprising we have learned from both - on and off the pitch.


The links with RU clubs are clearly an IL idea and I very much doubt IL asked Mark Bitcon about any of this.

In any case why would a conditioner as experienced as Bitcon who as you say spent a good time in Union think an actual training session with Bath was of benefit? He is I am sure capable of adapting anything he sees from another sport to RL without having to ship an entire RU team up to Orrell.

I am mystified why either club is doing it. PR maybe but if so I think that is not to the benefit of RL or Wigan as most RL people are, I would suggest, sceptical of the benefits.
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Re: Training with Bath RU : Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:11 am  
Mugwump wrote:

Consider Maurie Fa'asavalu at Saints. Millward picked him up practically for nothing and admittedly he turned out to be a great buy who provided outstanding value over several years. But it took Maurie THREE YEARS to develop his skills, fitness and mindset to the point at which he could legitimately be called a genuine league player.

Six months is a long time in League. Three years might as well be a generation. Think about it - by the time your new Union recruit is up to speed (which is a big if in itself) half your team will have moved on.

If Wigan need forwards they need them quickly - and with a full compliment of league skills.



Do you not remember Wigan signed Scott Quinnell who at first looked like a fish out of water but in a lot less time than three years was a quality player? We didn't even have him for three years but he was great once he got going a lot quicker than you suggest.

Now granted that was a different era but the point is if you are a good enough athlete with the right attributes for the sport you will adapt quicker than you suggest.

The problem is Wigan are not going to be signing RU players of the quality of Scott Quinnell, not that RU players can't adapt quickly enough.
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Re: Training with Bath RU : Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:09 am  
DaveO wrote:
Do you not remember Wigan signed Scott Quinnell who at first looked like a fish out of water but in a lot less time than three years was a quality player? We didn't even have him for three years but he was great once he got going a lot quicker than you suggest.

Now granted that was a different era but the point is if you are a good enough athlete with the right attributes for the sport you will adapt quicker than you suggest.

The problem is Wigan are not going to be signing RU players of the quality of Scott Quinnell, not that RU players can't adapt quickly enough.

My comments have been more generally recruitment rather than mainly forwards.
Why would we look away from any potential pool of players when our own generic pools are based in Yorkshire, Lancashire and a little bit in Cumbria?
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Re: Training with Bath RU : Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:21 am  
Union link up has nothing to do with signing their players or targeting Burgess, in my opinion it's about generating commercial opportunities and raising our profile just like the London pre season fixture.

In relation to Union players they need to be targeted way before they are part of a Premiership first team squad as the wage expectations make it increasingly unlikely they will be realistic targets.

From my personal experience as a coach in both codes open side flankers make the switch most comfortably to Prop as physically the demands of the game are similar, lots of defence, strong aerobic fitness as cinstantly moving and pace as they tend to be expected to be first to get to the breakdown. Blindside flankers and Number 8s also tend to be easy to mould but you need to get them way before they are established Union players, as happened with Ben Flower, who I bekeive was a Welsh International age group flanker.
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Re: Training with Bath RU : Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:44 am  
Mugwump wrote:
Could you? Could you REALLY? Because I'm betting you'd end up naming an order of magnitude above that number in blowouts. And comparisons made with amateur players are utterly worthless. Neither sport is what it was twenty years or more ago. Not by a long way.

Ah, I see. Somewhere between the moment you made up your mind to refute my reasoning and mentally totting up the total number of union flops in your head the penny dropped and so did the realisation that my argument is broadly sound. At this juncture regular folk simply depress the BACKSPACE key for an extended period and then find some other avenue of the Internet to explore.

But not you - you cheeky little monkey! Why exit gracefully from a thread when you can spew a ton of flamebait over it like a fighter jet scattering chaff to avoid a radar-guided missile?

I mean, I don't have an issue with the Wigan mods or how they police their board. But it strikes me that whilst one of the biggest threats to any club-centric message board is undoubtedly thoughtless (or worse) fans from rival teams, the fact remains that a (thankfully) small segment of one's own colours seem hell bent on encouraging said idiots.

This is the second time you've attempted to de-rail a thread with coded references to Keiron Cunningham and now Sean Long.

Touché re my comments on SL and KC. In retrospect it was a throw away line that added nothing to the discussion. Maybe I'm subconsciously defending by attacking without putting my brain into gear first. Straightener accepted in full.
I stand by comments that not all recruits from RU are por although many have been and I'm sure we will see poor and good recruitment from RU in the future.
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Re: Training with Bath RU : Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:40 am  
DaveO wrote:
Do you not remember Wigan signed Scott Quinnell who at first looked like a fish out of water but in a lot less time than three years was a quality player? We didn't even have him for three years but he was great once he got going a lot quicker than you suggest.

Now granted that was a different era but the point is if you are a good enough athlete with the right attributes for the sport you will adapt quicker than you suggest.

The problem is Wigan are not going to be signing RU players of the quality of Scott Quinnell, not that RU players can't adapt quickly enough.


Was Quinnell REALLY a hit? It's pretty hard to tell given the enormous gulf in standards between the top-tier Wigan players who were way ahead of not just players at the bottom clubs but many in the mid-table pack, too.

Granted, Quinnell *appeared* to be making plenty of yards (as did Simon Haughton early in his career). But we have no reliable statistics to make a determination insofar as the whole gamut of equally important attributes (tackling proficiency, endurance etc.) How many missed tackles was he making? What was his general fitness like? Quinnell openly stated that he found making weight difficult. And his physical capabilities dropped off a cliff once he returned to Union which suggests to me that he couldn't have possessed the strength of character many of today's SL players know they have to work on from a very early age.

I don't want to knock the guy too much because he was one of Wigan's better performers. But if I had to take a wild guess at the completeness of his rugby league skills I'd say that he was likely susceptible in one or two less visible facets of the game.

Now, factor in the additional layer of issues created by full professionalism in both codes. Union was a complex game BEFORE it went professional. Today, with all manner of sports scientists analysing not just key skills (such as tackling) - but FRACTIONS of skills. One way or another both League and Union are becoming more specialised. And as they do the gap which players must bridge to make a successful transition grows daily.

Sure, great athletes stand a better chance. But athleticism only gets you so far. I mentioned the term "muscle memory" because it is a monolithic stumbling block to all who cross codes. The process of unlearning correct tackling technique in League and then assimilating the same for Union (which is completely different because of the way the ball is recycled in play) takes a lot of time. Too much time, in my opinion.

Three years is a good benchmark for a completely successful transition. In three years you could have promoted several promising youngsters (at practically no cost) who are currently being coached with techniques which have been proven to work. Bear in mind that coaching one sport out of a player and then replacing it with another can only ever be an experimental process in a rapidly changing professional sport. Which means the possibility of failure is always likely to be high.

In any case, Wigan's problems are relatively easy to address (provided Wane hasn't lost the dressing room or some other calamity) with existing league talent. I'm not sure the club even needs to go outside of this country. Sure, getting one's hands on a Hill or a Walmsley isn't easy. But Wigan's problem isn't a slight undertonnage. You're massively undertonned. First get your hands on some modestly gifted yardage-getters who will immediately lift Wigan six or seven places off the foot of the stats table before you start worrying about superstars.
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Re: Training with Bath RU : Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:56 am  
jonh wrote:
Union link up has nothing to do with signing their players or targeting Burgess, in my opinion it's about generating commercial opportunities and raising our profile just like the London pre season fixture.


Any "commercial opportunities" must be weighed against the fact that Union is not just a competitor but a predatory one which has actively sought to harm our game. It would cut our throat in an eyeblink and celebrate with unbridled glee.

There's an old parable about helping a snake cross to cross the river which should never be too far from our minds when discussing "mutually beneficial relationships" with union.
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Re: Training with Bath RU : Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:54 am  
Mugwump wrote:
Was Quinnell REALLY a hit? It's pretty hard to tell given the enormous gulf in standards between the top-tier Wigan players who were way ahead of not just players at the bottom clubs but many in the mid-table pack, too.

Granted, Quinnell *appeared* to be making plenty of yards (as did Simon Haughton early in his career). But we have no reliable statistics to make a determination insofar as the whole gamut of equally important attributes (tackling proficiency, endurance etc.) How many missed tackles was he making? What was his general fitness like? Quinnell openly stated that he found making weight difficult. And his physical capabilities dropped off a cliff once he returned to Union which suggests to me that he couldn't have possessed the strength of character many of today's SL players know they have to work on from a very early age.

I don't want to knock the guy too much because he was one of Wigan's better performers. But if I had to take a wild guess at the completeness of his rugby league skills I'd say that he was likely susceptible in one or two less visible facets of the game.

Now, factor in the additional layer of issues created by full professionalism in both codes. Union was a complex game BEFORE it went professional. Today, with all manner of sports scientists analysing not just key skills (such as tackling) - but FRACTIONS of skills. One way or another both League and Union are becoming more specialised. And as they do the gap which players must bridge to make a successful transition grows daily.

Sure, great athletes stand a better chance. But athleticism only gets you so far. I mentioned the term "muscle memory" because it is a monolithic stumbling block to all who cross codes. The process of unlearning correct tackling technique in League and then assimilating the same for Union (which is completely different because of the way the ball is recycled in play) takes a lot of time. Too much time, in my opinion.

Three years is a good benchmark for a completely successful transition. In three years you could have promoted several promising youngsters (at practically no cost) who are currently being coached with techniques which have been proven to work. Bear in mind that coaching one sport out of a player and then replacing it with another can only ever be an experimental process in a rapidly changing professional sport. Which means the possibility of failure is always likely to be high.

In any case, Wigan's problems are relatively easy to address (provided Wane hasn't lost the dressing room or some other calamity) with existing league talent. I'm not sure the club even needs to go outside of this country. Sure, getting one's hands on a Hill or a Walmsley isn't easy. But Wigan's problem isn't a slight undertonnage. You're massively undertonned. First get your hands on some modestly gifted yardage-getters who will immediately lift Wigan six or seven places off the foot of the stats table before you start worrying about superstars.



I don't see any issue with "muscle memory" for lads coming from Union to League as leage is such a more simple game. Going the other way it could come into play as the natural reaction is not to get involved in a contest for the ball once the tackle has been completed.

Flankers in particular are asked to take the carry to get over the gain line and make the tackles especially from set pieces where they fly up quick to put pressure on the 10 (open side).

They also are expected to follow the ball to get into the contest at the breakdown to turnover or secure a ball. That is the main issue I had with them, or not getting sucked in to ball chasing/losing attacking shape.

The carry and tackle is very similar regardless of which code you play.
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Re: Training with Bath RU : Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:02 pm  
jonh wrote:
I don't see any issue with "muscle memory" for lads coming from Union to League as leage is such a more simple game.


I seriously doubt any SL coach would agree with you on this point. League is becoming a far more complex game. Consider the recent hoopla about Jon Wilkin's tackle at Warrington. I won't bother going into whether there was intent on Jon Wilkin's part - but the point is certainly valid about professional league players viewing the "tackle" as far more than the indivisible action it was twenty years ago. There's a fair bit of sports science involved now - not to mention cross-sport input (see wrestling, judo etc.)
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